Business Phone Systems

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#613982 11/08/17 03:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Hello,

I recently went to a customers site that had complained the fax line hadn't worked. When I traced out to 66 block, I noticed it had the wiring from the provider punched down as well as the cable to the fax and also a cable to what I am assuming was the alarm panel. When I took that wire off and just connected to fax, the line worked perfect, but when I connected the alarm line back and connected my buttset I got nothing? Could someone please explain, I am not familiar with how the alarm works

Atcom VoIP Demo
VoIP Demo
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,654
Likes: 4
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,654
Likes: 4
A typical alarm line will have be wired to an RJ31X 8 wire jack with a pair going to the jack and a pair coming back. For the alarm panel to be able to seize the line, normally the dial-tone from the phone block will be wired to the Red/Green pair first. Then the dial-tone will return on the Yellow/Black wires. The fax machine should be connected to the Yellow/Black wires. This would ensure that in case of an alarm the panel can disconnect the fax line and call out to the monitoring station.

There should be a surface jack outside the alarm panel. This is the RJ31X. If you disconnect the RJ45 cable then there are shorting jumpers that should connect the incoming Red/Green pair to the outgoing Yellow/Black pair. This way the dial-tone should still pass through if you unplug the alarm panel.

If you connect the Red/Green wires to the phone block but you don't get dial-tone on yellow/black, see if you can find the RJ31X jack and unplug the RJ45 plug. It should be outside the alarm box, but sometimes they put in in the box.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Thank you david for replying to this post. Do you know why I would not be getting dial tone or a dead line when I hook up my buttset at he 66 block and the fax and alarm are connected? Should the alarm even be connected to the fax line?

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,334
Likes: 3
Member
***
Offline
Member
***
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,334
Likes: 3
That's what you need to figure out. First thing I would do is pull the plug at the alarm panel and see if the problem goes away. It is possible for the alarm panel modem to lock up off hook. While you are at the alarm panel with the RJ45 disconnected, plug your butt set into the alarm jack and see if there is dial tone. There should be. If not you have to trace the wiring back to the 66 block to see if there is a problem.

Yes, I almost always use the fax line (if there is one) for the alarm.

-Hal


CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING: Some comments made by me are known to the State of California to cause irreversible brain damage and serious mental disorders leading to confinement.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,290
Member
*****
Offline
Member
*****
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,290
Start over.

The instructions for any telephone subscriber who has an alarm system running on a phone line is to unplug the alarm panel cord (not an "RJ45" cord, by the way) from the RJ31X jack. This is a simple test that can be performed without tools or telephone knowledge. In fact, it is a requirement by the FCC that the subscriber be able to do this test.

The above is what we call "theory" or "Telephony for Idealists, Optimists and Utopians."

In the real world, don't be discouraged if you can't find the RJ31X, more commonly called the "series jack." . More often than not, the alarm installer will put the jack INSIDE the LOCKED alarm panel, just so that the subscriber will be forced to call the alarm company for help, incurring a repair fee. Don't panic. The key to the alarm panel is "hidden" on the top edge of the alarm box in 99% of all installations. Failing that, the alarm boxes are locked with only about 6 different keys in the USA. They can all be jiggled open with the end of a paper clip.

If you are lucky enough to find the RJ31X, just unplug the cord and wait a few seconds. Try to get a dial tone at the block or the fax machine.

Just in case the other advice above was a bit confusing, here's another way to understand the wiring: The dial tone MUST, by NFPA standards, first go directly to the alarm panel, via the series jack. It gets there on a pair of wires. The pair might be red/green in old "quad" wire, or on the white/blue pair in new wire. It goes through the panel, through the normally closed contacts of a relay, when the panel is idle, and comes back out, via the jack, and thence back to the rest of the phone (or fax) equipment in the building on the yellow/black pair, or the white/orange pair. All the phones are "downstream" of the jack. That's to ensure that a fire in the building, even if it melts all the phones, will not hinder the alarm's ability to dial out and get help. It also will ensure that the cops will be called reliably if a burglar takes the closest phone to the door off-hook while he looks for the safe full of Krugerrands.

An experienced telephone tech will be able to state that a building does or does not have an alarm system, just be the presence or absence of this particular wiring scheme.

As my distinguished colleagues have stated, alarm panels can get stuck in their "off-hook" condition. That means that the relay inside the panel gets stuck. Being electronic, they are susceptible to power surges, low batteries, or evil spirits.



Arthur P. Bloom
"30 years of faithful service...15 years on hold"

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,419
Likes: 1
Member
*****
Offline
Member
*****
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,419
Likes: 1
Arthur - one correction, most alarm panels I see are locked with a self-tapping machine screw smile


Jeff Moss

Moss Communications
Computer Repair-Networking-Cabling
MBSWWYPBX, JGAE
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,728
Likes: 2
Moderator-Nortel, Computers, General
*****
Offline
Moderator-Nortel, Computers, General
*****
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,728
Likes: 2
Sometimes, when the RJ31 is inside the alarm panel, the cover of the panel has a "Trip Switch" attached to the door, so when you open it, it will set off the alarm. Had that happen once. Alarm company called and gave me %^&([email protected] for opening their panel as I wasn't "BELL" & they quickly notified the Provincial Police. The kicker is the client had bought the house 3 months prior and didn't even know they had an alarm system....so I had to wait for the cops to show up.


Scientists say that the universe is made up of Protons, Neutron & Electrons. They forgot "Morons".
Dave. (CTUB) Canadian Techs Use Bix!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,648
RIP Moderator-Nisuko-Tie, General
*****
Offline
RIP Moderator-Nisuko-Tie, General
*****
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,648
Originally Posted by jeffmoss26
Arthur - one correction, most alarm panels I see are locked with a self-tapping machine screw smile

Pretty much all I see on burglar , fire panels seen to have locks and keys .

I had the same trip switch issue like Dave once on a commercial burglar panel .

If you have to work on the lines of a fire panel , call the company who monitors it and ask that they put it in "trouble " for a hour. Beats having the fire dept show up


Skip
------------------------------------

Serving SW and West central Fl since 1984
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,334
Likes: 3
Member
***
Offline
Member
***
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,334
Likes: 3
Quote
If you have to work on the lines of a fire panel , call the company who monitors it...

If the customer even knows who to call. The sticker on the panel (if there is one) usually is for the company that installed it, not who monitors it. With fire panels disconnecting the phone lines only puts the location in trouble, it shouldn't result in a fire dispatch. Security systems the same except where there is a tamper. In those few cases I just let the police come. I get paid by the hour.

-Hal


CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING: Some comments made by me are known to the State of California to cause irreversible brain damage and serious mental disorders leading to confinement.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,290
Member
*****
Offline
Member
*****
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,290
Rule #1 In case of dog, always carry a few dog biscuits in your tool box.

Now Hal has come up with Rule #2: In case of cop, always carry a few donuts in your tool box.


Arthur P. Bloom
"30 years of faithful service...15 years on hold"

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  MooreTel 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums84
Topics93,832
Posts636,788
Members49,649
Most Online5,661
May 23rd, 2018
Popular Topics(Views)
Today's Birthdays
AWhite, jnimmick, MarkTPN
Newest Members
Lazlo, devben, bubblegum, Carl Arnold, Marjan Shaw
49,649 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
ramo 13
pvj 11
Toner 9
dans 5
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 14 guests, and 36 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Contact Us | Sponsored by Atcom: Business Phone Systems | Terms of Service

Sundance Communications is not affiliated with any of the above manufacturers.
©Copyright Sundance Communications 1998-2023
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5