Well, Just one question.... Untill now I didnt know about the rules for using CDs for music on hold. At the moment, I am using a plain old radio connected to my Avaya Version 5 Partner ACS phone system. I am thinking about either using Muzak or just getting another Direct TV rec and hooking it to the MOH port...

What does everyone else use?

Matthew

By far, the cheapest thing to do is go to Office Depot and buy one of their music on hold CD's. They contain licensed music (different varieties) along with professional pacifier messages. I think that they are about $30.00. All you need then is a good quality CD player that will repeat the playback of the CD continuously. Remember that it's going to be running 24 hours, so don't skimp on quality.

You can also buy an On Hold Plus OHP-6000 (about $349.00 list) that includes everything you need, even computer software to let you customize your own production. The manufacturer will also make custom productions for you. Most telephone equipment vendors sell them or have access to them. You might even check the manufacturer's website to see if they sell direct.

Muzak is a subscription service that can get expensive. Unless you need it for background music, I wouldn't see much sense in a monthly subscription for just music on hold.

Remember that using a radio or regular CD violates copyright laws for rebroadcasting licensed material. I am pretty sure that the same applies for a DTV receiver. I haven't seen a lot of cases around here, but I have heard of businesses getting sued for using radios and CD's for music on hold elsewhere in the country.

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Ed
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How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

[This message has been edited by ev607797 (edited May 13, 2005).]

From those you mention about the only one that is legal is Muzak.

Music is copyrighted material. It is certainly OK to buy CD's or listen to the radio for your own personal enjoyment but when you use it for business purposes without licensing you violate the copyright and usage laws. Business use is just about anything from live performances to recorded background and even music-on-hold.

Music licensing and usage rights are handled by three agencies in the US, BMI, ASCAP and SESAC. If you really want to play CD's or radio (or use them for MOH) in your place of business you can deal with them directly. You would have to purchase rights from all three because each one handles only certain artists and you could be using music by any of them. If you go to the BMI, ASCAP and SESAC websites you can see what is involved and what the costs are.

All three of these agencies have "spies" recruited from everyday people as the go about their business. They are asked to report back to them any business that may be playing "questionable" music so they can investigate. (I know how this works because I was approached by one agency to be a spy- I declined.) You can be sure that when the RIAA is fining teenagers thousands of dollars for copying music they will take a hard line with businesses not paying copyright fees.

As has been mentioned there is "royalty free" music available but don't expect anything you have ever heard before... It's probably OK for MOH but that's about it.

If you need background or foreground music or just want original artist material you are either going to have to pay for the rights yourself or use a music service such as Muzak and DMX. They pay the rights for you as part of your subscription but they can be a bit pricy especially if you are only using it for MOH.

Another consideration might be Sirius and XM radio. Both offer commercial packages with all rights paid. You mentioned Direct TV. They too offer a commercial package with many of their Music Choice lineup. Use a direct TV receiver and only use the audio outs, you don't get any video except for some text with title and artist.

I believe all three of these are only something like $19.95 per month.

-Hal

i have used plain old radios, and cd's for about 20 years and never had a problem.......

dont let the lawyers scare ya..........

Playing live radio is not a re-broadcast. The radio station has paid the copyrights. I believe you can play that live broadcast anywhere you want, in your store, at a swimming pool, in your bathroom or into your phone system.
What's the difference if the client hears it playing in your office on your desk or on the phone? What if I lay my handset down near a playing radio? Any lawyers out there? this sounds like a crock to me.
mark

neltech has a sonorous music player
it downloads with a wave file cd / 5 year warranty / presently comes with a coupon for free custom recording for customer @ $200 dollar range /quality product /
mark
i still think a rebroadcast is a copyright
problem but,again i havent heard a word about bmi etc causing a problem in i bet 15 years

[This message has been edited by KENB (edited May 14, 2005).]

I would argue that if it's playing live, real time, it's not a re-broadcast and it's free to any ear.
But I have lost a few arguments
mark


[This message has been edited by markk (edited May 14, 2005).]

i would agree if the music came out of the radio in the phone room ,but its being REBROADCAST to the listener on hold on the phone system so have all your customers that do this send me $200

This is from the BMI web site:

Q: Our Music-On-Hold System Only Uses Programming From Local Radio Stations. Aren't The Stations Already Licensed?

A: Though radio stations are licensed with BMI to perform the music they broadcast, that agreement does not cover further public performance by those receiving the radio broadcast signal. When radio music is used in music-on-hold, that use is a separate performance under the copyright law.

Since this is the World Wide Web lets hear from somebody that has been busted for using a radio or cd for music on hold. Not a story that someone has read or a guy who knew a guy. This has to be the biggest urban legend in the phone world. I have been in business for 20 years and so far nothing. Paying for music and a low voltage licence both are for the people who like to give away money to anybody who asks with a good scare tatic.

I agree with gkar. On Hold Systems are for those who want to advertise on hold, if you just want people to know you haven't hung up on them, I use a radio. Valcom even makes an FM radio designed for on hold use.
Mark


------------------
Reliable Telephone Service

FOR SALE.........CHEAP.......WHILE IT LASTS....


1. Never used Low Voltage License, thought I needed it.......OH WELL.....

2. Never used license to broadcast radio stations as Music On Hold.......I was told I needed it........

Make offer for both......LOL LOL

Groundstart, how about throwing in those sales contracts you never use also?

There have been plenty of people busted for the unauthorized use of music in their businesses. Not something that you will see on the nightly news though. Performance licensing organizations will ask you to cease and desist or comply with the law before taking any legal action. Most people will do one or the other once they understand the situation and the consequences.

This is not something to scoff at though I do understand that if you are from NYC you believe you can get away with anything...

-Hal

Again, I belive in faith but until someone steps up and says "It happend to me and I can prove it" You are just pushing a bunch of bull. So don't try to convince me with I know a guy who told me and I trust him or I read it so it must be real. 20 years of hookin up the radios to phone systems all over the US and nobody has stepped up yet or ever contacted me or the over 1000+ of my customers I have installed PBX's for including government offices, police stations and court houses.

That's probably because MOH is not something that is going to get a lot of attention so the chances of getting caught might be slim.

Still, you have the facts. It is illegal to use recorded or off air music for this purpose. You can continue to do what you want but as professionals I don't think any of us should be advising or enabling our customers to do anything illegal when we know that it is, as you should now.

Besides, it's more profitable to set them up with a message on hold system that will make them look a heck of a lot better than a local FM station that cuts in and out. Give them the alternatives and the reason they can't use music illegally. If they still insist on a tuner or CD player show them where to plug it in but don't get involved.

-Hal

If they still insist on a tuner or CD player show them where to plug it in but don't get involved.

Now that is what I do. As a Professional Phone man, I can not connect up a radio or cd player to my system, but I can tell my customer where the cable is for him to plug it in, and many do.

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Voice and Data Cabling in DFW, [email protected]
DnR Communications

Actually, and I know Groundstart will have a fit when I say this, you could be held liable also in any legal action brought against the customer for copyright infringement. That's why I say don't get involved.

Matter of fact our contract has a clause that places all responsibility for copyright compliance on the customer just in case some lawyer gets the idea to blame us somehow.

-Hal

Unless it's a professional recording we don't get involved. I simply leave the cable for them.

There is a difference between being legal and getting caught. I followed the “Beta Wars” back in 1976. Disney and Columbia both sued Sony for making and selling VCRs. The Supreme Court ruled that a VCR could be used for “Time Shifting“ broadcast programming only. When a friend of mine bought a beta machine the dealer sold him a Star Wars tape. I told him the tape was bootleg and he did not believe me. Later he went back to the dealer and the FBI had collected all of the dealer’s tapes.

Do any of you remember a pizza place called Shotgun Sams? They had a piano player and sometimes a banjo player who would lead the customers in singing songs. They had to stop singing Hello Dolly. Everyone should know what happened to Napster.

When/If You go to church look in the song book at the bottom of the pages. Some of the songs are copyrighted. For that reason, our church had to stop recording the song service and only record the sermon for a short while about 15 years back. Now there is a church license for music that churches can get.

Here is my last example. The sports stadiums of our nation are not big enough to hold all of the drivers who exceed the legal speed limit. The faster a drive goes the greater chance of getting a ticket. The bigger you are the greater chance of getting caught bootlegging music.

I hope no one finds out I tore the tag off of my mattress.

by acident the tax/stamp stamp on my pack of cigarettes fell off and I didnt know about it...

one day at the bar the guy next to me asked to bum a cigarette off me so I gave him one...he happened to see my pack of cigarettes with the tax stamp missing and wouldnt ya know he was an undercover investigator from the tax department...I got busted...

i spent the night in jail...while I was sitting there I decided to play my cd player out loud to pass the time...DAMN...I got busted again for playing copyrighted music...I JUST CANT WIN!!!!!

THe above story while it sounds true is completely false...although it could happen to you, so be careful....

Where did you say you were getting those Cuban cigars from again?

-Hal

from a phone company in westchester county....but i furgot his name....LOL LOL

I'd like to say I'm surprised at the responses I saw on this thread. Unfortunately, I am not.

Let me preface this by saying I work for a large on-hold company that also offers background music, and sells phone systems.

You sure could have them hook up a CD player...or a radio...we especially like when someone comes at us with the radio...that usually means they are advertising other businesses to people that are on-hold.

It's not about someone getting "busted" its about doing the right thing. Just because you won't get caught taking money from the business account to pay personal bills doesn't make it right.

You guys know phones. I know MOH and BGM. Don't come on here and blast what I do for a living.

Sorry, I just had to vent.

Custom on-hold is a great thing. Much better than the radio or a cd player that will only last 2 months. We are just saying that NOBODY gets in trouble for using the radio. I replied to this post to see what feedback I would receive. I guess everybody is still in prison and can't post about being caught.

if everyone did every thing by the book no one could afford to stay in business its the great american way every one breaks some type of rule like all of those business dinners with your wife or girlfriends that you deduct from your taxes

The way RIAA is going these days is MOH the next step?

The big thing we are doing now is downloading mp3's to a computer and connecting the audio out to the MOH and background music. I have customers who make there own commercials and use media-player to insert them along with the music.

Oh, that must sound real good. Tony from the bronx writing his own script and doing his own voice over illegal music. Just because technology today lets you do something doesn't mean that you should.

Many of our customers record their own auto attendant menus. Some are OK, some will put you to sleep and others are absolutely painful to listen to. Nothing to do with the script, it's the talent that is lacking. Thing is they all think they did a wonderful job when they actually are making their company look bad.

Maybe a few people can pull it off but for most people making your own on-hold production can't be good for your company's image no matter what they think. Spend the $175 or so for a pro to do it. It makes your company look good and it's legal.

-Hal

All right maybe this enforcement thing isn't an urban legend. Sales lady came from a dentist office in Austin TX that just received a cease and desist letter from a group out of Nashville (not hard to Google) about their FM on hold. I will get a copy of the letter for further clarification.

I'm sorry but the warning about using a radio in I'm sure every phone manual was just there to scare us? Hello! it is legit. Does everyone do it, yes. does that make it right? No.

Before this I worked as a Promotions director at a radio station. Record companys spend major money to get air play of their artist so you and I will go out and purchase the whole album. Record companies need to go talk to BMI and tell them to maybe back off because someone on hold could be a future customer.

I think it's illegal to re-broadcast to the public, which is what MOH does. There usta be a place called Abscam (something like that0 who call businesses got put on hold to see what they were using, and if they were illegal turn them in...some way or another.
That's hear say, I never saw it happen, just heard about it.

My wife and I used to own a small (30 seat) breakfast and lunch restaurant. We used to play a little light music. We were visited one day by a rep from BMI demanding that we pay a $900 per year liscensing fee.
We just went out and found some classical CDs and old Jazz CDs that were no longer under copyright. We kept getting nasty letters from BMI for about 2 years afterward. I returned every one of them with a note that we were not, and would never, play music recorded by one of their artists.

There usta be a place called Abscam (something like that0 who call businesses got put on hold to see what they were using, and if they were illegal turn them in...

Sounds like that would be ASCAP which I mentioned above.

-Hal

Yes Hal..them's the ones, glad you mentioned it again.

I wrote ASCAP, if you want the reply I can email it to you. Way too much info to post here. But bottom line it is illegal to use a radio,CD player etc. without paying royalties. payment plan is as follows:
2005

RATE SCHEDULE

MUSIC-ON-HOLD


|------------------------------------|
| Number of Trunk Lines |
| Used in Providing LICENSEE'S |
| Music-On-Hold Telephone Service |
| |
|Annual Fee |
|------------------------------------|


|----------------------------|
|1-10 |
|$205.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|11-50 |
|$409.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|51-100 |
|$618.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|101-150 |
|$820.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|151-200 |
|$1,027.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|201-250 |
|$1,229.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|251-300 |
|$1,437.00 |
|----------------------------|
| |
|OVER 300 |
|$1,644.00 |
|----------------------------

And keep in mind that you have to sign up with all three, BMI, ASCAP and SESAC. So the costs you provide are roughly 1/3 although the other two may be a bit different.

-Hal

I'm not real sure if music on hold fits the real description of the word broadcast. I don't think cable tv fits the description, that's why the fcc leaves them alone.

How does this apply to residential use??

How does this apply to residential use??

If the system is in a residence and there is no business involved like a home office, they can have anything they want on their hold.

The concept to remember here is if you use music in a business it inhances your business and in some way you are making money off of it. If you are making money with someone elses work the artist or performer who created it is entitled to a cut. This is above and beyond what you may have paid for the recording (or other source) which covers the cost for your own personal use.

-Hal

I had a customer get busted about7 years ago. For him not a big deal. He got a letter stating he had to either pay to keep playing it or disconnect it. He disconnected it and that was that. I talked to an ex-ASCAP about the same time and he said that if the playing equipment was standard household type equipment you could use it. In other words if you have a store you can place a radio every 10' tune them all to the same station and not have any problems. If you use a PA system it is consitered to be reboadcasted. Stupid but that is typical. Not sure it helps.

Yes, I've heard of that. The kitchen help for instance would be allowed to have a boom box in the kitchen and maybe one out front even for the customers would be okay. I think much more than that would be viewed as abusing the policy though.

-Hal

Actually the ASCAP & BMI police are for real. I almost did that but decided not to have an on-hold business at the same time. Playing the radio afterwards or TV shows (re-broadcasting) or at the same time (simulcasting) are both illegal without a license.
A great little option for SOHO (small office/home office) is on www.theholdbutton.com ...this is cheap and comes with a free Phil Keaggy music CD. Good guys too. Tell them "nashvite" sent you. Enjoy....

Hey Guys:

I didn't read the entire thread, so if this has been mentioned already I apologize.

One of my investment properties is a building full of law firms for which I provide the phone system. Aside from my telco business we also own a mergers & aquisitions firm. In both of those locations we use baroke/classical masterpieces. Bach, etc. It sounds really classy and it's so old, that it's in the public domain.

Just a thought.

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There are only 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary & those who don't.

I'm not real sure if music on hold fits the real description of the word broadcast.

Don't know what broadcast has to do with anything. Use copyrighted music for ANY business purpose and you have to pay royalties.

I don't think cable tv fits the description, that's why the fcc leaves them alone.

Umm, no. Cable companies pay carriage fees to the off-air TV stations that they carry and also pay royalties on any music they may provide on their graphics channels.


-Hal


[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited September 18, 2005).]