Is anyone else losing business to electricians who "throw" in the voice/data cabling for dirt cheap on new construction jobs to get the overall job,(usually under 30 drops). They get their "non english speaking" workers to run the cable and on some jobs they will terminate all, others they put jacks on and have wires hanging in the phone/data closet for us to terminate. We have explained to the customer why it is best to have the same company run, terminate, test, etc. to eliminate finger pointing problems, but they don't want to justify the expense for our techs. Yes, we get to bill for cleanup, testing, etc., but the whole job is what we would ideally like. Wondered if/how anyone else deals with this....

i would rather have the "non-english-speaking??" people run the cable and I come in at $90.00 per hour and do the cleanup.....

Just be sure you let the customer know that if it doesn't pass, you charge them to re-run the cable.

I have seen here lately that certain jobs require you to be Ortronics certified or whoever. I contacted Ortronics to become certified they said that there were enough installers in the area. What sort of Monoply BS is that?

Yes this is, and has been a major problem for years. I normally ask the customer if they will ask a plumber about a problem with there washing machine at home. A plumber might be able to fix the washing machine, but if he breaks it, then who is responsible for repairing it. Many customers will see the logic in it. As for going in and fixing someone elses problems during your install, all that does is make you look bad. You can never prove to the customer that it was his cabling peoples fault.

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Voice and Data Cabling in DFW, [email protected]
DnR Communications

At one time I was adament about our having to provide the premises wiring for our systems, not any more. I have pretty much given up trying to convince customers when the EC, computer guy, brother-in-law, retired Verizon guy yada yada yada ad nausium will do it cheaper or for nothing. And of course if there is a union EC they have to do it- it's the law you know.

Obviously most customers have no appreciation for wiring and I'm tired of talking to a wall trying to educate them. All they care about is the lowest price so the hell with them.

If they want us to do it fine, if they have it done by someone else fine too. If there is a problem with a run it's their problem and if they want us to fix it (always the case because they can never get whoever installed it to be responsible- surprise, surprise!) it's time and material.

But even then they never learn...

-Hal

But can they offer zero bit loss and a 20 year warranty? I always find the 20 year part a bit amusing. Our warranty comes directly from ADC and has nothing to do with the vendor so should they go out of business the customer is still covered.

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

Those 20/30 year warranties kill me. I mean, come on. What customer have you ever seen that stays in one place or at a minimum continues using the same wiring for that long? We do a lot of cable removals where very expensive cabling was installed by a prior tenant and they probably got a lengthy warranty with it just a few years ago. Doesn't do much good when it's in the recycling bin! We are starting to see a lot more landlord enforcement of removals by the tenant when they vacate a building.

As for wiring installed by "the other people", yes that is a huge problem. We show up to do the system installation and half of the cables don't work. Of course, the installing contractor is long gone and we are faced with a choice. Either fix it or return after their contractor fixes it. Even if we charge extra for our troubleshooting time, it still delays our system installation (and of course, the final payment). You can't win when someone else does the wiring. It never works and you always end up biting the bullet to make yourself look good. Most of the time, we are in there the day before the customer moves in. If we don't fix it NOW, we won't be able to deliver a fully-operational system. Someone else makes all the money and we deal with the headaches!

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Ed
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How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

[This message has been edited by ev607797 (edited April 26, 2005).]

We just wrecked out cat6 to put in cat5, they wanted all the wiring to match the new 2 drops requested. So we pulled out 10 drops and rewiried them. Makes great pull string doesn't it?

I like what Hal said "Obviously most customers have no appreciation for wiring and I'm tired of talking to a wall trying to educate them. All they care about is the lowest price so the hell with them."

We too have had bad experiences with the electrician's doing shotty wiring jobs. But you get what you pay for. We just make sure that the customer knows that they will be charged for any extra work that has to be done.

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Call us for Iwatsu in Chicago www.wiilcom.com

I wouldn't mind being that someone else. But I don't know if I could sleep at night. I guess since I would be able to afford one of those fancy beds with all the money I'm taking from customers, it would help me get to sleep regardless of what's on my conscience.

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| Signal Communication Systems - Fresno, CA |

| Telephone Systems, Voicemail Syste... & Data Cabling - Central Valley, CA

I just went through this with a guy who is building a new house.

He wants a panny in the house with 16 drops for v and d. I gave him the price to do the wiring and got the same old story.

I said OK, you have the ec do the wiring,
BUT after that you have 2 choices;

1) I inspect all the wiring before the walls go up and charge $300 per inspection

2) I install the system WITHOUT any warranty from me. If something doesn't work you deal with the ec or the mfg.

I took pictures of all the problems and e-mailed it to the guy. I am on my 3rd inspection!

I may not have made any money on the wiring, but I am making it up on the inspections and I can GUARANTEE that the EC will either NEVER touch telephone and data again or he will learn to do it right!

I am TIRED of being the NICE guy and ALWAYS being the one who has to eat it all.
Besides, it doesn't matter HOW nice you are
if there are problems when you get there the customer NEVER believes that it was wiring. It's the "cheap" phone system you sold them that is the problem. You bust you balls, lose money and you'll be lucky if the guy doesn't bad mouth you or your product in the end.

Corwyn

Calm DOwn and have a Xanax........

Forget him and move on to the next customer......nobody ever said that 5 out of 5 would be smooth sailing.........

Or have the EC furnish hard and disc copies of all tested pairs. I found a local who actually sent his people to installation school, bought the testers (CAT and F O ) and he subs under me when I need wiring. Don't fight 'em, control them. Same for the IT guy. I sub work to them. With a small town like this word gets around. We all make money and more than usual when we work together. I make mine from the telecom work plus a little off the top on the wiring and IT stuff.

Just say charge it (AMEX< VISA< MC). Cash will also do.

My worst experience with EC doing the wiring to date was a small office. He ran a separate data cable to each of the 8 offices, and 1 single stinking 3 pair voice cable was run up and down the hallway, dipping down the wall, half-ass wedged into an insert, then back up and on to the next. I showed up, saw the 66-block with 3 pairs of wire with the ends stripped and twisted onto the terminals, and nothing else. It was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry, and I had a wonderful time explaining to the client how badly his EC had screwed him.

We never do houses, but in my own personal experience I simply have the house builder (EC) have all the locations stubbed in conduit to the basement or central point so I can pull what I want where I want.

yep just looked at a job monday done by ec (all cat5 looks ok) no voice but thats not the prob termination will be a breeze test should be fine. the trouble is I cant verify the cable if I break it out for voice and data so her resolve is an ip phone system which has no use un this app. when I asked the ec why just one wire knowing they needed data and voice his responce was "well at our office we use 8 pin connections for the phone and the data and I couldent see the need for more than one wire" he is using ip phones and he just commited the customer to spending more than they can afford for a phone system (good for me bad for the client) the point is sometimes a little knowledge by an ec goes too far

We have the same problem here with ECs taking away our data & voice cabling business at much less cost to customer about 3 to 4 years ago. Several times they run cables & customer engaged us to do termination & testing. To counter these ECs we took up electrical work as well and competed with them. We formed strong alliance with the SIs & IT staff (they know the difference in expertise involved)and they became our regular & loyal customers. We also started to supply & install phone systems & provide warranty (if a 3rd party were to install the cables the warranty is void). It took some time to win over customers but we are beginning to see results. Some customers know the difference & are willing to pay for our expertise (for those cheapskate customers my thoughts are not to waste too much time with them & move on to customers who can afford - it helps our bottomline). However to this day we are still competing with these ECs and I'm still thinking of other ways to counter them. Any other thougths is much appreciated. Regards.

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https://www.cablemaster.com.sg

Yeah, CoralTech, I agree with you. Unfortunately, Chicago is the only place in the country that I know of where conduit is still required for residental electrical wiring. I wonder what Home Depot does there; are they actually allowed to sell Romex cable and non-metallic boxes?

Around here, it's just about impossible to get a conduit of any kind in residential construction unless we do it ourselves. Our approach has been to run flexible or PVC to our own liking to avoid finnickey customers' mind changes. We ALWAYS run at least a 1" pipe from the basement to the attic for our own convenience, even if we don't get paid for it. $10.00 worth of PVC saves a thousand dollars worth of inconvenience later. Besides, the customer actually doesn't mind paying us on the back side when something new, like network wiring or satellite comes along and we save their butts.

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Ed
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How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

It has become a big problem here in Vancouver, Canada. Construction is booming and it is very competitive. The EC'S are including the voice and data for FREE just to get the electrical work. There has to be a way of changing this, but I do not know what it is yet.

Vani

i think this problem is the same world over, the thing is the EC case is while we are busy pulling cables for power we pull in the V & D side as well. it only needs 1 dip stick to put the V/D in the same compartment as power & that runs knackered, now days i install systems to a frame/DP, if the phone works there but not on the other end of the run (tough SHIT) not my problem. However i would charge £75 an hour to resolve the fault or to put a new one in.

I did some work putting in home networks for a builder on the agreement that the electrians would pull the cable.
(BIG MISTAKE) They pulled the cat5 in a loop instead of indivigual runs. So I had to pull all new in and the builder was pi*@#$. The builders will get tired of having to do the job twice and the work will come back where it belongs.

Among some of my horrid experiences with Union ECs in Buffalo NY that think they are smart enough to do this sort of thing, one sticks out head and shoulders above the rest:

New build commercial space. Metal drywall studs with holes placed at the top for cable runs...whether it was AC or Voice/Data. Instead of using finesse (or grommeting like it's SUPPOSED to have) when pulling through, these geniuses just tugged until the cable cooperated. What that meant was out of approx. 30 cables, there were only 2 that weren't cut or shorted in some way. My company re-ran them...and the EC paid for the re-install.

They should just stick to AC.

I love it when electrician's try to do my work! I actually was able to bill a residential client MORE to un-screw everything than the electrician charged initially.

When I hear of clients hiring electrician's to do my work, I ask "How would you like me (a low-voltage electrician) to do your electrical?".

I had an electrican journyman (read: punk kid) on a commercial job say, upon learning I was the "low voltage electrician", "Oh, you're not a real electrician". "Really?" I said..."Let's compare paychecks!".

[This message has been edited by Danny_Ocean (edited September 05, 2005).]

Oh man! A guy bought a small 8-phone system from me for his new office. I stopped by today to see how construction is going, and when we might be able to get in to install it.

His general contractor was to have had the voice/data cabling installed by this point. Nothing had been run and he proudly showed me a box of what turned out to be essentially really long Cat6 patch cables that he is planning on running for both voice and data.

"Whats a 66 block?" "Why do you need a backboard?" "The phone system needs an power outlet? Why?" "Whats a netpop and why do you need cabling to it?" "Won't these cables work? Cat6 is the best, right? So whats the problem?"

This office is beautiful, marble floors, granite counters, custom wood-work, but the cabling is going to be a disaster and the GC and the customer don't know the difference. This is so frustrating.

'scuse the ignorance.

What is a netpop?

'scuse the ignorance.

What is a netpop?

It's fancy talk for network interface location, i.e. tie cable to the basement:

NET= Network

POP= Point of penetration where the LEC terminates. Some people use the word presence instead of penetration because it sounds better.

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Ed
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How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

You guys sure do tawk funny......

Around these parts we called them the PHONE CLOSET...

Why, we us'ns out here in the sticks are Sooooo Poor. Ya know how poooor? We can't A ford no closet, except the one our other set of clothes hang in along with the shotgun and the blue tick hound.

These clowns spend thousands of dollars per square foot and are too cheap to make arrangments for what makes them their money. If you aren't comfortable, the phone system is not comfortable. They wouldn't put their network server there but telephones are just a bunch of wires, right?

Don't get me started. It only takes a four year degree to design a building and get paid a percentage --- But forty years to be considered a know-nothing.

If your phones aren't ringing you're not making money.

And I've told customers that. The ones that don't understand that usually go with an out of town slick suit salesman and, Boy, do they pay, both for the system and the poor service. They deserve what they get.

Two weeks ago I was told through the grapevine that this one bid went to an out of towner. He saved $800.00 and got the latest version. This is the guy that had asked for a bid six months ago, wanted it install in 3 weeks, bought a used system from a computer guy, and just now got around to building his building. The new version was not even in the supply chain then, little alone the pricing and availability. Now this is a retired Fed prison hack. He treats everyone like a thug. $800? How long do you think he'll stay in business treating his customers and suppliers like that? Heck, I'd added $1800 just to be sure I didn't get it! Some jobs (or customers) just aren't worth it.




[This message has been edited by KLD (edited September 08, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by KLD (edited September 08, 2005).]

I know that I shouldn't make this reply but I will. I have a good relationship with one of the local EC company. When I started my business they called and asked me to quote on terminations and testing on a large project. Since then I have done 12 jobs for them. There was one that they were to pull white C5 voice and blue D5 data it was all blue and no numbers or labels. I back charged them. It has been great for me. They have given me other leads for voice jobs. That is my 2 cents worth. Thanks

Why shouldn't you? The EC seems to be smart enough to know he doesn't know! That's why he has you doing the work. As I've said before, I even sub out wiring to them. Why fight them when you can control them? Same with the CGs. Work with them, build a relatonship. It's called networking. That way every one makes a buck and everything is under control.

The slammers and rat (oops, old union electrician talking) outfits have their market dry up and they tend to look elsewhere.

Good luck up there in the cold country.

Why fight them when you can control them? Same with the CGs. Work with them, build a relatonship. It's called networking.

All I can tell you is that I've been there and done that.

Every EC around here thinks they are datacom specialists, says so right there on their trucks so it must be so. They would never give up a buck and pay someone else to do their job. Their work is usually crap but hey, what does the customer know as long as it works and they get paid.

Then there are the CG's. Okay, I have a couple including an ISP who will refer a small job once and a while like a wiring problem or install a run or two. I reciprocate with whatever I can send them.

A few years ago I had a relationship with a CG who refered us a few large office jobs. We would sell the customer a phone system which would include the installation of all premises wiring and jacks including data. All the CG had to do is bring in his machines and plug them in. Win-win right?

After about three jobs like this he sends us to look at another and we see that all the wiring including the telephone has already been installed. Seems the CG saw how much money he was losing by not installing the wiring and jacks and went out and hired a trunk slammer to work for him cheap. Non-plenum wire where plenum was required, nothing supported in the ceiling, kinks and all the home runs brought out to a location where we couldn't install the system. On top of that he needed to pull a permit and get an inspection and of course he was oblivious to that concept. You get the picture.

After seing this mess I asked him what's up. The CG says that he is going to install all the wiring and jacks from know on. I told him I couldn't work like that and didn't hear from him again.

Funny thing is after that I stopped hearing from those previous customers too. One was a large dental clinic with two locations. They were usually good for a few support and MAC calls every 6 months. Nothing. Then I saw an ad that they were opening a new third location. Didn't call me, why? I decided to call the doc that owns the places and he just kind of brushes me off (unusual because we had a good working relationship) and refers me to the CG without an explanation.

Then I get a call from the last customer we did with this guy. Seems they are going to move and because their system was still under warranty they wanted to get some information. Our contract states that the warranty is void if the system was serviced or moved by anyone but us. The CG insisted on wiring their new space as well as moving and re-installing the system.

They wouldn't say exactly what the CG told them about us either but I surmised that he told these customers that we worked for him, we were no longer working for him and he would be handling all their IT requirements including telcom for $$$ per month.

Work with them? Maybe in Kansas but around here they are back stabbing SOB's.

-Hal

I have seen both sides of the fence when it comes to wire infrastructure. I formerly worked for the local telco and took an early retirement. That was 2 1/2 years ago. At first it was a little slow. Now I have more jobs than I really need. I have worked fixing the mess left behind by some electrical contractors. Actually made some pretty good coin off these guys getting their wire up to spec. Even had one outfit repull some Cat 6 (the copper was actually showing) and it was in tray.These guys I charge by the hour, due to the fact they like to do their own terminations. Fine with me I simply do the terminating again.

Another contractor I know pulls the wire to the locations, and I come in to terminate and test. This fellow has his guys pull it the way I ask and he pays a flat rate per drop. No problems everything pulled and enough slack to cutback for the racks and jacks. But he maybe the exception some of these contractors are simply to large and send the novices to do the work, no supervision. Big coin coming my way when this happens. I have a couple of contractors who actually get me to sub the job. Some people now their limitations.

As for tying both the electrical and communication in the same package when it comes to bidding. This has been a problem for a long time. Even when I was with the telco, there was plenty of squawking. But the local telco only does Belden/Nordx pretty expensive. I have no problem beating these quotes. Even get some referrals from people within the old telco. But plenty are a bit tweeked when they hear that I pulled this job or that. But better someone with experience than a novice with no guidance.

But all in all some of these electrical guys actually now what they are up against. If someone wonders who they should get for a electrical contractor I tell them who does good clean work. These guys know what I say and I get their work. you scratch my back and I scratch yours.

I just finished 1200 Cat 6 drops. The other company did 1900. I will get their work from now on due to the way these specialists (not even electricians but a private firm that specializes in cat 6 wire in residences)did their work. Left all the wiring laying on the ceiling grid. How is that for a firm that considers their forte Structured Wire.

So keep slugging some one is bound to win.

This post is 5 years old...

Still a problem today as I see it.
Some things simply are timeless.

He has a point. Same all stuff.

Might be a point and might be a continuing problem. There does come a time a topic needs to be laid to rest. This ones time has come.