This is a practice run to see if I can insert a picture. The pictuure is of a current project I am wworking on.

pic looks good but are those cables long enough ?

Cool, I did it. Now here is what it is. There are a total of 163 Cat5 cables hanging out of the ceiling the longest being 18 inches give or take. They have all been cut off nice and neat to the same length. In other words at one time they probably had enough length to work with but not now. My job is to get the 63 white ones connected to the 66 block and the 60 blue ones connected to the patch panel. There are only enough 66 blocks to connect 48 cables and the PP only has 48 ports. The picture doesn't actually show how short the cables really are duee to the upward angle I had to shoot the pic from.

Sparky...Well done my friend, you keep us in business.

Merrit, In answer to your question:

Not even close

On the Cat 5e side--I don't see how you can keep the same patch panel and stay sane. I would get Leviton jacks inserts, with a Jack Rapid and terminate all of the cables that you want to---Sharpie on the sides of the inserts. If you can mount blank patch panels up close to the ceiling -- then it won't look too bad. Just snap in the terminated inserts in the appropriate blank holes. If you just can't get a patch panel mounted--use finger duct and plug your patch cords in the inserts inside the finger duct...??? Won't be the best but it will work.

The stuff going to the 66 blocks --well---unless you want to do a lot of scotch locking (very ugly from what I am seeing in the picure)---you're going to have to mount new blocks to terminate the cables--then cross connect to your existing blocks.

I'll ask my head tech what he thinks tomorrow morning. Maybe by that time you'll have some other ideas. Good Luck.

Any way of pulling slack from the other end, someone needs to have their cutters taken away.

Don't you guys have cable stretchers in your vans?

Wireless!

John:

I have some AT&T CAT5 extender blocks. They are basically a tiny plastic box that houses a single 110C4 clip. They work really well for applications like your. I have plenty of them that you can have cheeeeeep if you are interested.

You could mount 110 hardware starting from the ceiling. That should give you enough termination for the voice. I believe they make cat5e 110 with special patch cords that have 110 on one side and RJ45 on the other for the data. Just a thought.

ED, This is just one building of a 20 building apartment complex. People are moving in Friday so I'm short on time. I'll know today if other bildings are in same condition.

I don't see what the problem is John! There looks like there is plenty of room on the ceiling for a patch panel. Or, after you terminate the phone wires, just put a 7' rack directly in front of the 66-blocks. The data guys around here do it all of the time. Just make sure you give yourself at least 6 inches between the rack and the 66-blocks for AMC's.

One other thought, you could just tywrap the patch panel to the fiber. But, please don't try to secure it with screws thru the fiber.

-Larry

Is it possible to pull the cables out of the room, mount 110 blocks in the ceiling outside the room, then punch down new cables on top of the 110 clips to extend the wiring to where it needs to get to ???

Larry, Don't laugh at me too much. This is in Gainsville and I almost gave them your phone number. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Whose laughing? I've worked with those guys before.

John,

I was there all day yesterday. We even spoke with the owner to see if we could rearrange the closet and make everything reach without having to splice on more cable. I thought if we could exchange the location of the patch panel with the fiber enclosure, and move the bottom 2 66-blocks up to the top on the sheetrock, everything would work. But to our misfortune, the owners answer was NO...NO...NO

I even brought my brand new Benford 6000 Cable Strecher. (No Luck!!! Thanks for the idea Twisted Pair!! :rofl: )

So after 400 Scotch Locks and about 150 beenies, and still there at 8:30PM, I found myself with still 28 cables to go. At 8 to 10 muinets per cable, I just couldn't stay any longer. However, my Ocala tech is there finishing it up this morning, since he had 300 more scotch locks on his van. (By the way JW, it does looks like crap. Once done, we are going to try to push the splices up through the ceiling where they will not be visable.)

I also found out some more information about this abortion! :idea: It's hard to see in John's picture, but there are bundeles there taped together with different colored tape. These separate each of the units cables. (Contractor did not use a sharpie or lables) So in all actuallity, this is their tail. They were not cut, they were pulled short from the very beginning.

Also, can anyone tell me if there is a standard for the color of cables used for a particular service. For example: This projects has White and Blue Cat-5e. My experience would tell me that the Blue is for Data, and the White is for Voice. However, after removing a few wall plates I discovered that they did exactly the oposite.

Kirk

There is not standard as far as color of the jacket.

You're using Scotch Locks and beenies for the network cables as well?

YES

All I can say is, we tried to accomidate the cliet to the best of our efforts regaurdless of the outcome, and now they are stuck with the future and stability of this system.

Kirk

Are you insane CCSGINC? You're a cabling contractor. Yes that install was botched by the hack that did the original install by making those cables that short. If you had extended those data wires using a more approved method (such as those AT&T blocks that Ed mentioned), it would not have driven the costs up that much, and still test fairly good. By doing the way you did, everyone of those brand new drops is pretty much garbage now.

Two wrongs don't make a right!

TP, remember he has already tried to get the customer to do it right for what he has to work with. You can either do the man's work and take his money or you can walk away.

A decision each of us must make.

KLD

I'm 100% with Twisted Pair on this one. When the owner said "NO NO NO" I would have said "bye bye" and walked away. You don't do something like this just because the client tells you to. The client doesn't have the knowledge and experience to make that judgement call, but you do. If they insist on something so obviously wrong like this, tell them to find someone else. At the end of the day it's going to be tied to your reputation, not the client's.

I would have had them sign a waiver.

Well guys every single one of you is exactly right. I personally was the guy that told the GC this is not the way to do things and he said he didn't care. Just as long as when the end user (college student) gets dial tone or a connection is all he is after. He was warned and my reputation will remain intact.

What you do not know is this. The project we took on made each cable 2 inches shorter and that the GC was also informed that when there isn't a deadline looming things can be done the right way. I pulled the man out of a jam. Failing to meet a construction deadline of that magnitude is extremely expensive.

My bud CCSGINC knows the right way to do things, but turning your back and walking away from someone is not the right way to do anything.

John

Why endorse something which is wrong ?
This gives the Industry a black mark.
If its right its right, if its wrong its wrong, this is cut and dry.
No excuses.

I could not be a part of this situation, or referred it to a buddy.

I'm a old far.. i sleep good at night, and i will not not comprise for breaking the law of right versus wrong.

There is also another thing that I have known for a long time and I don't think a lot of so called experts even know. Now before I tell you this I'm gonna beat the drum again about how it is strongly recommended to home run a cable from point A to B using all the BICSI recomendations, however the truth is you can splice a cable and it will still work. It's not good, not recommended and if another cable can be run to replace one that is the solution. Period. Following that procedure will result in quality installs and happy customers. But the truth remains that a splice will not kill a cable.

I took the time to hook my tester up to 100ft of Cat5e and ran a test. Then I spliced it as sloppy as I could using beanies. Both tests past easily even the wire map. I did have a few beers during the procedure. The NEXT (near end cross talk) was on average .86 poorer on the spliced cable. FYI the limit is 31.4dB.

I'm gonna finish by saying again if there was any other way that would fit the scenario that is the way we would have done it. And this damn sure wasn't the easy way. 123 cables = 492 pairs = 984 connectors and damn near 2000 twists.

Trust me, this was not the easy way out!!!!!!!

Cables have been spliced for over a century and if done properly, or at least close to properly, they will perform just fine. It's the cable manufacturers who don't want this done because replacing a cable run that's too short, well you know the rest. There is always a proper way to splice a cable.

In your case, I don't think I would have used Scotchloks-that's a huge waste of time.

We did the same thing with some AT&T(Lucent, Avaya, whatever) modules connected on each end of a 200 foot piece of CAT5e. We did this because we could not visibly tell the difference between their CAT3 and CAT5 modules. We used the CAT3's just for grins. The cable tested 100% compliant as CAT5e.

I think that the standards are a bit too high. Occasional glitches in design should be managable.

Hold on now. I didn't mean for this to become a values contest. (Thanks KLD :toast: )

I know good and Dam* well this is not the way it should be done. And trust me, all options were discussed and explained to the customer, in the time we had.

This is an apartment building, the closet in on the 1st floor with all cables running thru the sub-floor, with no possible access. So replacement is totally out of the question. They are 100% ready for occupancy by college students. Move in date was yesterday the 18th. Notification of this project was given to us on the Wednesday the 16th.

The owner, client, customer, or whatever you may call them, is who you are there to please. And I don't feel that "By responding to their last minute emergency, and following their directions and meeting their expectations and/or specifications by deadline” puts any bad mark on our industry, makes any statement about the quality of work anybody performs, or determines the common wealth of Right and Wrong.

Its just good business, if you ask me. The client gets exactly what they asked for, on time and with no additional expenses.

Who do you think they are going to call, when it comes down to putting on the jacks, like suggested above, and fixing the problem, after the hectic move-in process is over.

The voice cables will be just fine as they are. The data cables can still be pulled back down, re-terminated with jacks, and correctly repaired at a later date.

Thank you all for your comments.

Kirk

With all the controversy as to who would have done this and please the customer and who would have walked away , this seems like a good topic to start a poll on. (I'm not sure how to do it) :rofl:
Maybe are new Admin. Ed will set this up for us?
MrG

Mr. G., that would be a good poll. But I do believe that the split will be the OFs (me, included) on one side and the new guys on the other.

But Kirk explained it in his last post. He did what HAD to be done as the time allowed. Haven't we all just thrown something in to get the customer service and went back later to do it right?

The wire test has been done before so I have no qualms about splicing if necessary. Thanks John for proving / validating what I've said before. Like Ed said, these ckts have worked for years on Cat Nothing getting to the site. And still are.

But, yes, if it had not been the situation he's in, yes, there would have been a BIG meeting ! And, yes, if the owner/ GC / whomever did NOT want it done right --- bye, bye.

My dollar 2.98.

KLD

Yeah, I think I will try posting a poll. This is a great subject. Let's see what happens.

I was a construction superintendent on a year long job full of changes. The next door construction supply company once gave me a copy of a cartoon with the phrase "There comes a time when you just have to shoot the architect." with a depiction of him dead on his drawings.

My best framer friend came into the trailer and put a line thru architect and replaced it with "project manager", meaning my companies senior superintendent who was also a delight to deal with and commonly got himself in similar situations. He too was laughing when he saw the cartoon, though never saw the added line.

Isn't that what scotch tape was created is for?
And colored tape for unit #.

They did test me with some jumper wire in my network job interview to see if I could identify the different colors of each wire. As they had a guy before me try to trace those 2500 or so connections. They thought in the end he could not see color. I traced and documented 2500 sometimes by 5 subclosets so was really like 10K+ jumper wires in a month. Now I remember why it gave me a headache doing that for 5 or weeks straight.

The older cat5 installer there told me a story of a greenie unwrapping some multipair in the hundreds cable and nicely removing all some type of identifable ends at a job that went from 4 hours to 4 days or more of toning each pair.

The reason the super, gc, customer probably would accept it being done that way is it gets done now and no changes or added equipment. You see he would have to explain it.

Another super once told me that it doesn't matter what the people want they can't have it. He meant this about everyone from the owners, builders, subcontractors that none will get all exactly what they want while trying to keep the schedule moving. He also said use the phonebook to solve a problem. Just keep at it till you find who can answer what you don't know about solving.
This was pre internet days. But even now it works.

I spent a large amount of time on the phone anyway often talking to 60 people or more a day on phone plus some 50 or asking questions in a job full of owner desired changes and faulty blue prints. Another large part of the day is writing down everything that is said and happens each day in your own little blank paged book. Some go back and change what they said to cover their asses with a large sheet later either by page binder style or eraseable ink. As in these situations sometimes arise with blame game. But that little book we keep for ever in life in case judicial matters arise. The bulk of it is transfered at end of day to another full sized daily log during the week when free time. So not allways is their agreement accuratly recorded but in this situation I would think you have now worries and did a fine job given such a situation.

One things that I learned early on that my boss never did it seemed was to ask the subs before you get to that point (cablie error) how they would do it and what is the norm. When he did ask he would often dream up some idea of his own and attempt to do it that way. One his best lines though when confronted on what he had asked for previously was the response of "you must have been talking toe somebody else".

The biggest issue is money. What more in cost and time would take. What you did worked even though I realize it wouldn't be acceptable for data, and if I know more than likely this guy like our project manager, will be calling you again on another job. Literally some subs or their main crew leads would avoid our project manager after one project.

Yeah there is a cleaner way but ultimately when looking at it I like the suggestion of putting a 7'foot rack infront of the 66 blocks best. This termination in someways doesn't matter now I think. The end user or customer appears to have no use for the data cables unless they have access to this closet. Theres no hub, bridge, switch or router or anything planned here I take it? Its just for looks now?

Yes splices at cans or even underground cables. Or submarine clamp on listening devices work too. I remember some nutty friends cutting trees for fire wood. One got stuck against another. One of them looked thru the woods and found a cable laying on
the ground. Needless to say about 1" worth of houses no longer had phone service that day.

A story I liked came from the beige or colored box days suggested either opening cans or finding such a wire and identfiying the live ones and splicing a variety of connections in. Then calling to a 1 900 line then connecting another to a chat line and then jumping these together for entertaining havoc.

I found your soapbox Ed it was under Packet :rofl:

Packet

Welcome to the board packet. In here you will find 90% phone guys jabbering back n forth. It's refreshing to hear from the other side.

That was sarcasm, my friend! There would be no access to the 66-blocks, the fiber, the protectors or anything else if he put a rack there.

Not that some data guy wouldn't do it that way. But, I'm sure Grider and CCSGINC would not.

"I never said that. You must have been talking to somebody else."

You never said what was quoted from the thread you posted? I'm confused...

I had a customer today wanted me to do the same sort of thing I would have used some slightly more approved joiners then scotch locks.

I said $10,000 and Ill make your problems go away.

Anyway he found some other poor bunny that thought he could fix it for less.

Good For Me

The easiest thing to do would be to terminate all of those cables on 110 blocks up in the ceiling (above the tiles) and then terminate C-4 clips to the 110 block. You could then run NEW blue and white cables from the 110 block down to wherever you need them to be.

This would introduce a "splice point" into your channel, but this is an acceptable practice and TIA standards allow for it.

Just make sure to strain-relieve the cables coming off of the 110 block down to the 66 blocks and patch panels. Otherwise, the weight of the cables will, over time, pull them from the C-4 IDC connections.

Good luck.

LOL You may need to reread… That’s one of the better lines in his rant!!!! :rofl:

One thing about contruction dead lines is the "Money". Construction loans pay-out in increments. Certain percentages of the loan are paid as the project is completed. There is a very good chance that if the cable was not completed by the move in date a loan check would not have been issued for that phase of the project. And you know what the say: "no money, no worky"

Wow! This situation looks like quite the nightmare!

I can usually talk customers out of splicing (especially for data), but it sounds like there wasn't a choice!

By the way, I once had to splice a 50-pair for voice. This was an underground cable and I put the splice in a plastic enclosure for the purpose. (was no other way, unless the customer could dig up their asphalt parking lot).

Just a question...I use Elk Yellow Jackets (we call them "Beaners"). I don't care for the round plastic ones...what does everyone else prefer?

As for the mini-debate, you do what you have to do, how many times have you advised a customer to spend that little extra for a better phone system, and have them buy the less flexible (but cheaper) one, only to have it cause them headaches later?

Dolphin Beanies or Scotchloks.

To splice an underground 50 pair cable? 710SC connectors with filled caps. Scotchloks are great connectors, but take too long. Thomas & Betts has 709SC connectors that do a full pair at a time. I would never, ever trust Beanies, even indoors. There is a reason that the Bell System stopped using them in the 1970's.

JordonJ, you filled the splice closure with encapsulant, right?

As for the mini-debate: No it causes YOU headaches later since they will come running back begging you to work on their "gently-used Rotelco 5000 IP/1A2 phone system" they got on e-bay for half of your system's price. Your phone will ring at night a lot more than it used to!

I like beans they make a nice splice, I haven't tried the inlines that Ed talked about, simply because I have a bunch of beans and scotchloks. I know there's been many debates on connectors. The new beans I don't like very well and I can't use them in my crimper, I do know you can still get the real thing and if I need more that's what I'll go for. For outdoor I use either filled beans or filled scotchloks. Ed, the bell system didn't switch to scotchloks until after divesiture, at least not out this way, beans were still the standard along with 3M mod splices.

Ed...I am interested in this Rotelco 5000 IP/1A2 you speak of...call me!

Bill:

3M (as in Ms2) splice modules by a Bell company? I know that they didn't switch to Scotchloks until after divestiture, but they did use those cumbersome 702 and 703 connectors, correct? I haven't seen a Bell company anywhere I have ever been that used any mass splice module other than 710, but hey, you worked for them so I think you know the real deal!

Jeff:

Have your girl call my girl, we'll do lunch.

Ed...I hope you got the joke there...
if not, we have a serious problem.
"what we've got here is a failure to communicate"

Of course, Jeff. I smelled what you are cookin'

If you mean that epoxy mixture...yes. I also covered it with shrink wrap and electrical tape too.

I got the call for the job and it had to be done the next day...not much time to shop for materials.

I'll have to take a look at those 709C connectors you mentioned...

I AGREE WITH JWRacedog THAT SEEMS TO BE THE SIMPLEST SOLUTION.

splice the whole mess up above the ceiling with 710 modules and just run one large cable to your block

The quality of the splices, the twist rate of the wire, and an intact shield are what are important for network operation in a situation like he described. Outside plant cable has always been spliced using solder, scotchlocks, or beanies ( C wire connectors) and if done right have always provided a good circuit. I do believe I would have had the customer sign a waiver though in this instance.