My customer had their IT guys wire their new office. I went in today to move the phone system. I got everything installed and cross connected, but not one phone worked.

I stuck my toner in a jack and found my tone on blue/white and white/green. WTF!

So, I open a jack and see that he used 6-conductor jacks for voice, but wired them '568B' (sort of). He had white/org pair on pins 1 and 2. white/green on pin 3. blue/white on pin 4. white/blue on pin 5 and green/white on pin 6.

And the brown pair, wrapped around the cable, probably not sure what to do with it...

The MDF could definately be a candidate for the 'ugly work' thread (66 blocks mounted upside down, messy termination, poor layout).

There is a certain craftsmanship that us pro's put into our work, that these hacks haven't learned and don't understand. It makes me want to cry when I see a nice new office suite wired up in this fashion - and the customer either doesn't realize it or care either way.

You: "Mr. Customer, I have completed the installation of your phone system, as we discussed/contracted. The system works properly when the phones are plugged directly into the control box."

Him: "But the phones don't work when I plug them into the jacks."

You: "I can either explain why, show you why, or show your IT guys why. Right after you pay me for what I've done so far."

The IT person did follow (to a certain extent) the 568B wiring convention.

I always use 568B, but I sometimes find myself, when cross-connecting extensions for a Partner system, automatically punching down on the Blue and Orange pairs and then feeling foolish when I remember that the 2-pair phones need to use the blue & green pairs. :scratch:

I always use 568B, but I sometimes find myself, when cross-connecting extensions for a Partner system, automatically punching down on the Blue and Orange pairs and then feeling foolish when I remember that the 2-pair phones need to use the blue & green pairs.

I keep saying this nearly every day but I guess everybody else is smarter than I am. THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T USE DATA WIRING AND JACKS FOR VOICE! What the hell is the reason for using 8P/8C jacks wired (with I'm sure CAT5) for 568B then punching the other end down on a 66 block? Damn guys, when are you going to figure it out? Provide the wiring and jacks as necessary for whatever system YOU are installing AND STOP worrying about what somebody may want to do with it later! That's not your friggin problem!

-Hal

THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T USE DATA WIRING AND JACKS FOR VOICE! What the hell is the reason for using 8P/8C jacks wired (with I'm sure CAT5)


I use the following cabling & jacks:

SYSTIMAX

Cable:

004BGY 4/24 W1000 (4 Pair CAT3)
004BWH 4/24 W1000 (4 pair CAT3)

Jacks:

M1BH-H-270 (CAT3)
M1BH-H-262 (CAT3)

None of this is CAT 5E (or higher) rated.

Seeing 8P8C jacks does not mean that CAT 5E or higher cabling was used no matter how many times that may true.

Most of the major cable manufacturers no longer produce 2 pair cabling. If cutting off or wrapping extra wires is considered to be the sign of a "hack job", what do you do with the remaining pair(s) if you use 6P6C or 4P4C jacks?

Use 8P8C jacks, punch all of the pairs down and be done with it.

Use 8P8C jacks, punch all of the pairs down and be done with it.

If you use an 8P8C jack some idiot will plug a data cable in it. Use a voice jack and wrap the spare pairs. Many times a customer will want an additional voice jack at the same location and you will need the spare pairs at that time. Customers always seem to move fax machines requiring and additional voice jack.

As far as 2 pair cable, General still makes it.

Assetts:

1000ft box plenum, about $55
24 cables to 1 66 block
CG won't touch it (he thinks it is inferior)
I install single pair digital systems so I have twice as many pairs as I need. BTW, if your installing single pair digital systems the blue pair goes in the same place on all popular wiring patterns so even a cave man can't screw up a jack, which brings us to next asset of 2 pair.

With a 4 pin mod on one end it is a great jumper to go from 66 block to the patch panel front side so you can use a data port down the hall for a phone. Geeks hate it when I put a white jumper across the front of their patch panel. Screw'em!

As far as 2 pair cable, General still makes it.

Yup and I always have a couple of thousand in stock and have it for the same reason. What do you do when a customer has an existing Partner system that uses two pairs and you are asked to add an extension off an existing 66 block? Normally you would see all flavors of abortions by hacks that involve line cords spliced or even punched down on the block, or a field of biscuit jacks with a couple of dozen line cords between them and the system all knotted up and hanging there.

2 pair also comes in handy in a pinch when they want a phone on the other side of the office as the jack. Make up a long line cord and staple or tuck it in around the baseboard.

If cutting off or wrapping extra wires is considered to be the sign of a "hack job", what do you do with the remaining pair(s) if you use 6P6C or 4P4C jacks?

You would NEVER cut them off and wrapping the spares back is the mark of a craftsman.

It's nearly everyday that I use those spares and another keystone jack to add another phone, a fax or maybe a CC machine. Used to be they were used all the time for modems.

-Hal

If you use an 8P8C jack some idiot will plug a data cable in it

That's the reason (at least with my church install) that I've color coded the jacks & cables and used a P-touch label maker to label everything clearly (in locations where multiple ports are involved).

If color coding and labeling isn't enough to prevent someone from trying to plug in a modem into a telephone system port, then that person has other issues.

You would NEVER cut them off and wrapping the spares back is the mark of a craftsman.

Using the PROPER jacks for the cable is the mark of a craftsman. Jamming a round peg into a square hole isn't. 4 pair cable uses 8p8c jacks, 3 pair cable uses 6p6c jacks and 2 pair cable uses 4p4c jacks.

No, I fully agree with you, the proper way to teminate the cable is to wrap back the unused pairs.

My frustration is that this guy used 6-conductor jacks (and Cat6 cable), but in his ignorance, wired them '568B'. So, instead of white/blue - blue/white on pins 3/4, it was blue/white - white/green.

This is happening more often, these guys who take the attitude that 'anyone can install wiring'. Yes, that is true, but not everyone should.

Anyway, it was a nice new office suite, but if you pop a ceiling tile open, the wiring is run scattered all over. The MDF looked like crap. 1/4" paneling used for a backboard, just screwed into the drywall not in studs. 66 block mounted upside down. And the termination technique was sloppy. Then, none of my phones worked...

I wish I had my camera with me, definately one for the 'ugly install' thread.

Using the PROPER jacks for the cable is the mark of a craftsman. Jamming a round peg into a square hole isn't. 4 pair cable uses 8p8c jacks, 3 pair cable uses 6p6c jacks and 2 pair cable uses 4p4c jacks.

No, that's absolutely not correct. The jack you use depends on what you will have plugged into it, it has NOTHING to do with what pair count the cable might be.

-Hal

I agree with Hal on this. Use the correct jack and wiring scheme for the application it's for. Doesn't matter if it's quad or 25 pair. CAT nothing or CAT6.

I always sell my customers on the same layout as a minimum. Two voice, 2 data. I run 3 4 pair cables per drop. I split the voice cable into two jacks. That way it is all there and ready for me or the next guy and it just adds the cost of 1 voice jack per plate. And it saves me a huge amount of time when I get called back again and again to add new extensions or FAX machines. They always end up using that extra jack.

I always sell my customers on the same layout as a minimum. Two voice, 2 data. I run 3 4 pair cables per drop. I split the voice cable into two jacks. That way it is all there and ready for me or the next guy and it just adds the cost of 1 voice jack per plate.

If I'm selling a phone system I have to be competitive. Every penny counts because the customer is looking for the lowest cost. So if I'm to provide the wiring and jacks for my system under the contract, no way am I going to quote any more than what is required for my system to operate. I'm not a wiring contractor and I don't give a RA about what may happen in the future. I'm only interested in selling my system and making it work at the lowest cost. Years ago it wasn't that way, but that's the way it is now. To do anything else only serves to give the customer ammunition to further nickel and dime and dicker about the cost and what is being done- or look elsewhere.

If I am asked to provide data wiring along with the voice wiring, the data wiring will almost always be under a separate contract because invariably the customer will have some price from his CG or local trunker that I can't compete with. I want that to have minimal impact on the system cost so the customer is free to decline that work as a separate item.

If a customer has his own ideas about what the wiring should be red flags go up. I advise him to contact a wiring contractor of his choice and call when it's completed. After I see what has been done I then decide whether or not I want to do the job.

-Hal

I hope you advise the client about that choice ahead of time....maybe he/she will get the hint that the "other guys" wiring may not be up to YOUR standards of acceptance.

I don't agree with Hal and totally agree with Dexman. This days almost every client ask for CAT5E or even CAT6. I am too using color coded jacks and in my opinion it is the right way to do. Yes, almost any system right now have a One pair connection to the Voice network but Legend and Partner still use 2 pair cords but phone jacks are 8p8c and can use Data patch cord to be plugged in into the wall jack as well. Besides the price difference between CAT5 and CAT3 inserts are almost nothing and on 5-6 phones client you are not going to save money anyway. So why bother to do different punch down scheme if you can do uniform 568B on all of them. I don't like attitude of " I don't care what happened in the future" either. If I intent to keep that client then I better off be prepared if he will decide to buy IP system later on. If I will follow Hal's theory customer will blame me later on for not telling him about necessity of rewiring Voice Network in case of going to IP and 100% will drop me as his Vendor. I am proud of not loosing any clients on this ground. I've never was blamed of not telling my customers all choices and possibilities he might faced in the future. That is why my customers stay with me even they decided change the phone system no meter what kind of deal they were offered.

According to my contract: COMSYSTEC does not warrant that premises wiring will work with any service or equipment other than that which COMSYSTEC connects to it at the time of installation.

That's the way it always was and that's the way it's always going to be. If they don't like it I'll just give them your number Vad. I don't need any more PITA customers.

-Hal

I have no problem using Cat 5 for telephone but hate it when I see 8p8c jacks used for telephones. The only reason I can see to do that is to take advantage of the customer.

8p8c cost much more then then the proper 6p6c jack

You can get more then one phone on a 4 pair cable there by saving the customer $$ from running extra cables.

6p6c plugs in a 8p8c jack is just looking for trouble. There is no support to stop the plug from twisting and bending the pins which calls for a service call and jack replacement. Job security yes but I feel that is ripping off the customer. Do it right the jack should match the plug being used in it.

6p6c plugs in a 8p8c jack is just looking for trouble.

I have heard that numerous times but have yet to actually come across this combination to ever be trouble in real life. I don't disagree with the reasoning of why it is to be avoided but in the real world you would think I would have come across it at least once by now.

I took a standard line cord and plugged it into a Cat5e Panduit and it is just as snug and square as it is when I plug it into a Panduit 6 pin voice grade jack. :scratch:

I have replaced numerous 8p8c jacks that have bent pins caused by a phone being plugged in and someone pulling or tripping on the wire. I have one location with a system that does not like line shorts and that has caused port failures resulting in expensive repairs.

John pull sideways on the cord, its the pins that are giving it all the support not the sides of the jack like it should be.

They use cat 3 cable and 8 pin jacks for phone here at UT. I asked the telecom guys why and they really did not have an answer...I think the IT guys wrote the specs
I can't tell you how many people in the dorms have plugged their computer's network cable into the white 8 pin phone jack.

I have replaced numerous 8p8c jacks that have bent pins caused by a phone being plugged in and someone pulling or tripping on the wire.

Same here Merritt!

I color code jacks too;
Blue=8p8c for data
White/Ivory= 4p4c for digital phone
Black=4p4c for C.O. dial tone/analog system port

This doesn't stop idiots from switching all their cords to try and solver a problem.

I wire a customer up for what they purchased, not what they may purchase in the future.

That's not 568B, it's just plain wrong. 6p6c jacks get wired to USOC standards, not 568-anything. Learning it takes all of five minutes (less when the colors are marked right on the keystones), so you got an especially dumb IT guy who punched them down.

"And the brown pair, wrapped around the cable, probably not sure what to do with it..."

Most jacks we wire are set up as RJ14 (even if the plans call for just RJ11), so the green and brown pairs are neatly wrapped around the cable.

Leviton 6p6c keystones have a set of 'dummy terminals' for the brown pair - it can be punched down, but it isn't connected to any of the pins. We never punch down the brown pair on the jack end (unless it's data).

"If color coding and labeling isn't enough to prevent someone from trying to plug in a modem into a telephone system port, then that person has other issues."

True, but I prefer 6pxc for telephone and 8p8c for data because it's more idiot-resistant.

"Using the PROPER jacks for the cable is the mark of a craftsman. Jamming a round peg into a square hole isn't. 4 pair cable uses 8p8c jacks, 3 pair cable uses 6p6c jacks and 2 pair cable uses 4p4c jacks."

For PLUGS I would agree with you. With jacks I'd agree with Hal.

Jack

I wire a customer up for what they purchased, not what they may purchase in the future.


My opinion is that to do otherwise is taking advantage of the customer. You are asking the customer to gamble money on something that may never be used.

It seems that today everybody is a wiring expert, from the customer to the CG. Everybody except the person who has years of experience, is doing the work and gets second guessed.

-Hal

100% correct Hal.

----

Merritt, I will back you up on that one, as well. I actually carry some "bent-pin" 8P8C jacks in the cup holder of my van to show customers. These are from real world screw-ups and I use them as a visual aid when explaining this to customers and their IT guys. Most IT guys never had it explained and shown to them, so they gladly comply and I have essentially started the "snowball of knowledge" and they will inform the next IT "wiring engineer"

The last time my employer remodeled and had new voice and data drops installed, the cabling contractor used 8p8c jacks for voice and data. They also connected all runs to a patch panel, even those for voice.

I am often having problems with 6pxc plugs that don't make connection or bend the pins of the 8p8c jacks. Even if they don't *appear* to bend the jack pins, they still sometimes damage the outermost pins. This problem only shows up when we use that circuit for data in the future.

So, I can say from what I've seen at work that 8p8c jacks are a problem with 6 position plugs

I know, I know, using patch panels for voice is another discussion. It was not my choice.

-Nelson

The only time I make a "variation on this theme" is if I believe I'm going to be the next person who might have to run a new cable for a pony wall or hard cap area. Then I will suggest adding an additional jack or cable this point in time will be less expensive than after the walls and ceiling are all closed up.

But of course if it's a 2'x2' area and has four USOC and four DATA then I just whine to myself about why there is so many cables for such a small area.

-Dean

I ran across this problem over 10 years ago. It brought down about 30 servers in the small server room AND it was intermittent. I inspected the jack and saw the bent pins (I have no idea when or why a 6p4c phone cord was plugged into it) and I replaced it. Problem solved.

Since the title of the thread is "IT guys strike again", I should mention that I cleaned up the wiring in this room and not 2 hours later someone messed it up again (running patch cords willy-nilly over the front of the racks). I sent an email asking whomever made the mess please clean it up as it looks like crap and the culprit emailed me back all pissed off (till then I had no idea who it was). Real bright. This guy was the type of person that gives all IT guys a bad name. I didn't much like dealing with him, as I considered him a moron.

An IT guy once ordered material from us to do his own install because he didn't want to pay us to do something that was "so easy". He then called back all irate and said the cable I sold him was "No Good". I asked him which wiring scheme he used. He replied, "Wiring scheme? I just matched up the colors at both ends!

I've fixed a couple of networks that had split pairs. Barely works at 10mb, definitely not at 100mb.

The most common error that I see (when someone crimps their own 8p8c connectors):

1 white/orange
2 orange/white
3 white/green
4 green/white WRONG
5 white/blue
6 blue/white WRONG
7 white/brown
8 brown/white

All I can guess is that they look at a patch cable and duplicate the wiring, but don't notice how the blue pair is in the center and the green pair around it.

"As long as its the same on both ends it doesn't matter." I've heard that one a few times before. LOL

I've heard that one too many times, too. Those people also rarely have any idea why we use twisted pair.

There is a major difference between installing a telephone system WITH its associated wiring and installing a generic Structured Wiring System.

Years ago we would install various data systems and each one required a completely different wiring system.

IBM - RG-62 Coax
Dec - 2 pair 24 AWG with MMJ jacks
Starlan - 2 pair AWG 22 with RJ12
Ethernet - Either "Goldenrod" or RG-58 Coax
Wang - Dual coax with BNC and TNC connectors
etc.

Every time a customer bought a new computer system they had to change their wiring. The EIA/TIA 568 structured wiring standard was designed to eliminate this problem for customers by creating a standard network wiring that all DATA system manufacturers could agree on.

All DATA systems.

While the 568 standard addresses voice wiring and recommends the same 4 pair jacks and cabling I would like to say, that I am unaware of any telephone system (with the exception of 1A2) that won't run on a 3 pair 24 AWG Cat3 cable with 6P6C jacks.

DEC created the MMJ jack so that you wouldn't confuse their connections with anyone else's. There is a certain logic to this. I'm sure most (if not all) of us have gone on service calls where people have plugged their phones into data jacks and vice versa.

If I had to recommend a wiring scenario for a customer it would be Cat-something (5E,6 6A - whatever they wanted to pay for)for the Data and Cat 3, 3 pair for their telephone system.

Sam

AT&T Merlin will run on only 3 pairs? I've never tried it, but I thought they used all 4.

Yes, the Merlin systems would run on three pairs (voice, data and power), but the absence of the white/brown pair meant that there was no hands-free intercom (HFAI). Intercom calls had to ring at the station.

No HFAI would be a deal-killer in some installations.

Probably way off topic, but I was called in to troubleshoot a data installation completed by the electricians a few months ago. When they couldn't get it to work, their CG took a shot at making it work. Then, they called me.

No Patch panels - everything terminated on 8P/8C Plugs and plugged into the switch. Looked at the terminations and found out that they had terminated 568A on one end and 568B on the other end - because "there has to be an A end and a B end". That made me decide to take a closer work at the install in the rafters. Found about a million wire staples on the CAT 5e runs - all hammered staples!

Long story short - I wound up rewiring the entire office suite properly above the drop ceiling and selling a new phone system.

ED

As I have said a million times: Just because their licence says they can do it, doesn't mean the should do it.

One question Ed...Did the customer get their moneys worth in the overall cost to complete the job?

I just remembered the network installation I looked at back about 10 years ago that was botched by a Verizon tech. (He was doing a side job). He punched the wires to the patch panel in the wrong order. He happened to be there while I was looking at it and he repunched them the right way...problem solved.

Dean,

I think so, because the customer wouldn't pay the contractor for that work. I thought it would cause trouble for the contractor, so I took an hour and went m by and met with them. When I finished showing them the photos before and after - there were no questions asked.

Got a call today from that contractor to do their new office cabling.

Ed