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grief, you are sounding like a CG wanting phone systems to match your knowledge/skills/desires

maybe THIS is why an experienced phone guy is worth more than a CG. (though most IT guys will argue this point)


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Greif,considering the cross-dependencies that can occur in the fantastic TDM systems being deployed today, I suspect you are looking at a program that will occupy 1 and possibly 2 CD's, ZIPPED. This thing would have to read the entire system program EVERY time you made a change. Real time programming would not be an option. Download, modify, look for things that interact and how, fix the interactions as needed, look for the new interactions, fix as needed, look for the new interactions, fix as needed, ad nauseum! This is where the human brain and experience outdo the 'wonderous capabilities' of the computer! John C. (Not Garand)


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Am I alone in thinking that the programming interface should do the work of identifying cross-dependancies for you? Most systems pretty much do that in the feature document as the last lines (as; related features, or required features/settings). So, these interactions should be available at least as a pop-up in the programming window, and for sure as a warning if a feature won't work at all unless other features are turned on.

Yes you are alone. What you are talking about is called training and experience. In short-knowledge of the product or system. A GUI could handle the mundane user level functions for an end user as they do now but it could never make complex configurations simple for someone without training.

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Well put, Hal. :thumb:


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The ability for a program to check itself for dependencies is not as intensive as you all make it sound. It's usually a fairly small piece of code that just checks the "big picture" items and spits out an error message telling you which items aren't enabled/etc.

The harder part is having the engineers spend the time in order to determine what the actual dependencies are. This involves code audits and regression testing that may or may not be part of their normal development cycle. Plus the management may decide that such a use of the R&D budget is not profitable because the system programming is to be done by installers that will have learned the dependencies either by trial and error or certification.

The other issue is like hal said, there is no real way to verify a complex dialplan/programming. This gets even more difficult if not impossible by VoIP systems that are capable of higher levels of integration beyond just SIP/TDM endpoints.

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re: grief, you are sounding like a CG wanting phone systems to match your knowledge/skills/desires


Well, I would guess this is partly true. But in learning to program for new systems (robotics controllers, custom equipment,various computer scripts, etc) it has been easier for me to get up to speed than with phone systems (despite the fact that the phone system manual were usually much more complete and sometimes better).

I seem to hear a lot of tone (here) "that phone systems are our bailiwick and all others must use us". That did not work well for the early mainframe computer guys, and in the long term computers and phones will merge more and more.

This is certainly a lively subject!

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Well I have been in the forum for two whole days now so it’s time to throw some potatoes in the soup.

From everything I have read on this post, you are all right.

I work on/with the larger commercial systems that Avaya makes. I started here working on a lightening hit AT&T Dimension 2000. I had about 2500 stations then. I have seen a lot of changes through the years like you guys have.

About a year ago I went to the new servers for processors (S 8710’s). I sounded so much like most of you about them. My old G3R only had about a 99.999 runtime and mine was actually better than that. So why the hell would I want anything IP related little lone depend on them to process calls in my PBX? It is the way the industry is moving. Is it better? That’s a tuff one. At this point I would have to say the servers are working well and Avaya “Claims” the same 99.999 runtime. I am not sure about that one, but it’s probably not far off.

For VoIP, I think it is still not near where it should be to depend on it. In my environment (a hospital) it is not something that I would place a patient’s life on it. And here it could very well happen. From all that I have taken in about it, the only true saving is the trunking. By the time you rebuild your infrastructure up to meet the VoIP requirements, you have lost money that it will never save you. And I also don’t like have the “All your eggs in one basket” scenario either. Again here I can’t or someone could die. Although a lot of hospitals have gone with all IP solutions. Maybe the old AT&T phone guys that taught me years ago have me thinking the same way most of you do, I don’t know.

To me VoIP is like ISDN was. In the beginning ISDN meant I Still Don’t Know. Now it’s everywhere, a tried and proven technology. But VoIP is coming, but still a babe IMO. This is where us old guys are going to have to cable and hook up everything for these kids so their stuff will actually work.


Don’t try this at home kids, I am a professional..


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Quote
Originally posted by RATHER BE FISHING:
Quote
Originally posted by liquidvw:
[b]
Quote
Same feelings on VoIP trunking. Sure, you may save a few pennies on calls, but as Frank_DaFoneguy so gracefully put, the reliability is not there.
Not true on a private network. There are many ways to do VOIP, on a private network say MPLS or via the public network, the internet. The company I manage moves all its voice traffic on a private MPLS newtwork. The savings in over $200K per year. Call quatily on the MPLS is better that the PSTN IMO.
LiquidVW is correct. An MPLS managed network is probably the most stable platform between multiple sites that is available today. There is hard and soft redundancy built in so there is no single point of failure. A customer site of ours that has 23 locations with 300 lines received enough savings to pay for new premise equipment at all locations via monthly lease. 24/7 monitoring at data centers insures some serious uptime. Chances are issues are fixed before you know there are problems. Not everyone can afford to play in this arena however. VoIP over anything other than truly managed bandwidth is idiotic. [/b]
Well said. There is a HUGE difference between VoIP carrier services and hardware managed VoIP internal systems. If you want to run your small business on vonage or an equivalent, good luck with that. You WILL get service calls, and it's not worth it.

If you want to put together a solid VoIP solution that takes the best features from traditional telephony and throws in some new cool features, it most certainly can be done.

I see a definite need for our techs to become cross trained in data services. Voice is becoming data whether we like it or not, so we have bought a data company with competent data techs to assist us. We will cross train their techs in voice, and they will cross train ours in data.

Amazing how much they resist though. Data guys don't want to touch traditional voice, and voice guys don't like data. Those who don't adapt will be stuck servicing legacy equipment until it disappears IMHO.

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I have reread this thread a few times, and YES, this has been one well-discussed topic for several weeks now, with input from ALL sides.

VoIP is in currently its infant stages. If any of you can recall cellular, beginning in the early to late 80's for most cities connected at present, it has evolved a long long way.

The 333 channel 800Mhz "cellular" system has long-ago progressed into the high frequency PCS phones we use today. Cellular required a large power supply to support its 3 watt tansmitter, battery powered phones had about 15 minutes talk time before you recharged them overnight, mobile phones required your automobile's electrical system to support them.

Today, we have PCS, low powered high-frequency portable long-range phones, and it is the current evolutionary point in personal communication.

For the past 25-30 years, we have all been guilty of throwing thousands of dollars at technology for its benefits, only to have it superceded, sometimes within mere months, by the next latest and greatest thing on the market.

Yes, VoIP will have a place in our culture.
Yes, VoIP will eventually be the infrastructure used to transport voice telephone calls.
Yes, computer guys will eventually be our phone guys.
No, it is not going to happen in the next 5 years.

I do feel for the folks that are currently shelling out thousands for NEW VoIP phone systems. Myself, I would never buy the first three grenerations of any new technology. Hell, I did not get a CD player until 1996.


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Frank, I still have a blinking VCR. But, your summary of the wide ranging commentary (Whoa, several big word word so far!) is right on. I think an corollary of where VOIP is headed is Nortel's BCM. Look at Marty's list of upgrades,notices, warnings, etc., on his web sight. I think that is where VOIP will be going for the next half-dozen or so years. The thread has been really interesting and hopefully it will draw more comments from different points of view! John C. (Not Garand)


When I was young, I was Liberal. As I aged and wised up, I became Conservative. Now that I'm old, I have settled on Curmudgeon.
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