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#451327 12/09/08 07:55 AM
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I have a question about extending a Bonded T1 past the Channel Bank.

Some boring background info:
We will be moving to a new building in January, so I have some time to get it all figured out.

Our phone service will consist of 5 POTS lines and a BONDED T1 line. In our case, 2 T1 Circuits.

I did an examination of the building already. It’s a 2 story multitenant building. We are on the second floor; with the ILEC Demarc on the first floor. There is already a channel bank in the demarc room, used by another tenant. We would be CKTs 2 and 3. The ILEC's policy is to save on equipment, so tenants share the T1 channel banks.

We have a 25 pair cable going between the demarc room and our suite. I spoke to the Verizon tech about what their wiring conventions are.

He said the obvious "we aren’t responsible past the Demarc", which wasn't my question.
I wanted to know what order/conventions were used for punching down the lines on 25 pair block to get them to the suite. And if we can use the 25 pair cable. for both POTS and T1's.

He went on to explain that it was perfectly fine to combine POTS and T1 service on the same 25 pair, since that is how their Out Side plant is wired. He then said that the POTS division would start by punching line 1 at the top White/blue, Blue/white pair and go down, on our block.
The T1 guys would start at the bottom with Violet/slate, slate/violet pair and work up.


My questions here are.
  1. Has anyone seen this before?
  2. Is this common?
  3. By starting at the bottom, what would the pin out be</font><ol type="1">
  4. Transmit then receive OR
  5. Receive then Transmit.
  6. Would you skip pairs?
  7. Would you knowing that these are two circuits working together start with CKT 2 or CKT 3 from the bottom, or would it be the reverse of that.


[*]Or am I looking to far into this, and just do what feels right because there are no conventions to this.</ol><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Where would I go to find this stuff with out having to have been a Verizon tech in the past?

This is in the surrounding Albany New York Area, that may or may not have been NYNEX in the past, if that helps

Thank you all for any insight you can give. It is much appreciated.

Atcom VoIP Demo
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#451328 12/09/08 09:41 AM
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A couple of questions:

I've never heard of a "Bonded T-1 Line". Is this like a DS1-C, some circuit with a bandwith of about 3 mbs that you will then split into 2 T-1s? Or are you using the 3mbs pipe as one ckt?

When you say "Channel bank", I think you mean a mux (probably a T-3 mux). A channel bank takes a 1.544 mbs T-1 and breaks it into 24, 64kbs circuits.

We try very hard never to run T-carrier on the same cable with POTS. When a T-1 is fed on copper OSP generally the transmits are put on one binder and the receives on another to minimize interference. If the circuit is coming over as a single pair HDSL or something similar, well, that's a different story.

Personally, we either used General Cable "T-1 Cable" or two runs of shielded 6 pair (transmits on one and receives on the other) to feed T-1s.

Sam


"Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?"
#451329 12/09/08 10:34 AM
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Quote
I've never heard of a "Bonded T-1 Line". Is this like a DS1-C, some circuit with a bandwith of about 3 mbs that you will then split into 2 T-1s? Or are you using the 3mbs pipe as one ckt?
This is how it is billed by the carrier.
It's the bandwidth of 3Mb/s on two ckts. Both go into one router. It's our internet pipe, and our PBX uses VOIP to a Co-location.

To Quote Internet dot com
https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/b/bonded_T1.htm
Quote
A bonded T1 (also called DS1) is two or more T1s that have been joined (bonded) together to increase bandwidth.
Quote
When you say "Channel bank", I think you mean a mux (probably a T-3 mux)
You are correct, I am using the wrong term here, and I do apologize.
I mean this thing
https://picasaweb.google.com/lcdpanel/T1Box#5277859238743074210

Is that what this is called? a Mux?
Multiplexer?

#451330 12/09/08 11:38 AM
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It's a nice picture, but I have no idea what it is. Forgive me, but I've never seen one of those before. It looks like it's got 4 handofffs so maybe it's a T-2 (6mbs). Of course I haven't seen a T-2 since Picturphone at the NY Worlds Fair, but who knows? Why not?

A mux or multiplexer takes a big pipe - like a 45 mb T-3 and will break that down to 28, 1.5 mb T-1s. An OC-48 mux will take a large fiber pipe and break it down into 48 DS-3s, etc.

A channel bank does the same thing but is the smallest of the muxes, using a T-1 as the "big pipe" and breaking it down into individual Dialtones or DS-0 circuits.

Sam


"Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?"
#451331 12/09/08 12:13 PM
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That box is at our current location.
There is one just like this at the new location.
The T1 Tech from VZ said that since there is already some one using CKT 1 we will be on CKT 2 and 3.

This next pic is of the backboard in the "new" office. You see in the bottom left a 2 Circuit version of the box.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lcdpanel/T1Box#5277879575721191842

I think I know what you mean now by channel bank, That is what those 'mux'en were called by a Verizon guy I talked to years ago, I had been using the same name since.

I think that the last tenet or their Carrier left a real "Channel Bank" at the "new" office.

It's that white box with the 25pair terminating at the Orange Demarc Block, right?

So, back to the cabling question. Is it not recommended to place them on the same cable as POTS or a definite NO NO?
I understand that this could cause some problems, but how badly? Is it worth running more cable? If so where can i get this 6-pair cable, if we do indeed run it?

So if you were to put them on the same 25 pair,
you would put TX of both circuits on the Violet Binder and the RX of both circuits on the Yellow binder.

I have seen some people glazing over this in a few threads. The consensuses that I have found were:
  • Just use Network patch cable to go between the demux and the router.
  • Put the TXs on one cable and the RXs on another.
  • (your suggestion) put the TXs on one binder and the RX on another binder.


Seems to be that the it's better to put the wires of the same direction together in the same jacket is better than keeping the whole circuit together in the same jacket.

I just noticed that there is a forum for T1 questions, sorry about that. frown If it needs to be moved there please do. I don't like adding to confusion. Cabling seemed to be the best place for it.

#451332 12/09/08 01:06 PM
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The box in the bottom left corner is the smartjack.
The white box at the top looks like an Adtran channel bank.


Jeff Moss

Moss Communications
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#451333 12/09/08 01:11 PM
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Your first picture is the smartjack, that acts as the telco's end-point of the T-1 lines. The second picture is an Adtran channel bank, probably a 624 model.


Rob Cashman
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#451334 12/09/08 01:33 PM
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Smart Jack another misnomer to me. :p

So you guys refer to the entire enclosure itself as the smart-jack. I thought the term SmartJack referred just to the jack.

So I should understand that smartjack and the mux can be considered the same thing then.

BTW when Verizon came for a vendor meet, he tore out the smartjack that was on the board. Due to the new "tariffs" in the area. So I will need to extend the T1 up there some how.

Am I going to subject it to a lot of interference by placing them on the same 25 pair as POTS?

If I were to run a separate line for the T1's, and to preserve the shielding; how would I accomplish that? i haven't seen an RJ48x jack box with a ground round the socket.

#451335 12/09/08 01:59 PM
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You are correct: The term "smart jack" is widely-misused. A smart jack is a simple RJ48X that forces a transmit/receive loopback condition whenever the connected equipment is unplugged.

The enclosure is just an equipment mounting that often includes "smart jacks" as their form of output. The mounting and associated cards are often referred to as a network termination facility. This terminology varies by region.

A T1 circuit is brought to the facility and usually ends at a network termination facility. From there, it's RJ48X "smart jack" output is routed within the building as necessary. It never hurts to end this cabling with another RJ48X.

You probably won't see an RJ48X jack with a ground, however there is nothing to stop you from wiring a ground connection to pins 7 and 8 if it makes you feel more comfortable.

I wouldn't perform this extension via existing 25 pair cable if I were you. At minimum, I'd run a dedicated 4 pair cable for each circuit. The right way would be to break out all of the transmit and receive pairs for each circuit and route them via separate cables as Sam mentioned (all transmits in one cable and all receives in another).


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#451336 12/09/08 02:45 PM
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A mux is separate from the smart jack.


Jeff Moss

Moss Communications
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