atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Telecom Service & Providers Telco Rules

It sounds like this building used to be quite a busy place, and now it's only requiring a small fraction of the original service that was initially installed by the provider.

Regardless if this equipment (cards, etc) is currently in use or not, it's still the property of the LEC. I wouldn't touch any of it.

With live circuits already being provided thru at least some of this equipment, my suggestion would be to request that the LEC schedule and conduct an onsite survey of all their equipment and circuits, and provide a copy of it to you. Be onsite when they arrive, and discuss your important concerns with them. They should at least be able to turn off/disconnect local power to any of their unused, non service-impacting equipment.

It's a start.

BTW John,

Altho Mike is correct, in that in use or not, the equipment still belongs to the LEC, good luck getting it removed, circuits consolidated, etc. I think the deal here is that it costs the LEC more to recover, test, repair, and warehouse the equipment than it is worth. Especially since a lot of it is obsolete.
All that said, you will be trying to pull hen's teeth even getting them to formally abandon the equipment. It's one of those, "I cannot/willnot take resposibility for giving you that decision, and I don't know who can/will." Short version, CMA. It will probably be a lawyer/engineer team thing and a lloonngg drawn out proccess, that you will not live to see come to completion! Good Luck! John C.

What Mike and John both have said about the abandon equipment is the truth… I belongs to the LEC and “should” not be messed with. (That’s my “official” answer) … That being said, here’s what I can tell you as a Telco guy about the various NID’s or smart jacks scattered about in the IDF’s and tenant spaces that are no longer in use… there ain’t NO ONE coming back for ‘em, EVER! … And they won’t be missed! If you choose to have a qualified wiring technician remove them no one would notice. Keep in mind though piling ‘em up at the MPOE isn’t hiding the evidence very well. :shhh:

Also keep in mind any equipment in the cabinets and or shelf’s within the MPOE, even if not in use may very well be used again on future circuit orders and may be inventoried by the Telco.

I have pulled the plug on many many old systems,card banks and so on for various reasons including needing the wall space or just slowly cleaning out a closet for building owner. If I could not determine the use of a certain piece of eq. and building owner wanted it gone I would tag it and pull plug show owner and tell them to plug back in if needed. When you think about all the old eq. that was abandoned over the life of a building and never at least unplugged its amazing. I'm working on a project in NJ. where there were 6 Ksu's still plugged in and numerous alarm systems, old 1a2 transformers,channel banks etc. In the same building we have cleared over 500 pounds copper wire, mostly 50 pair that was just cut and left on ceiling tiles. We only removed the wire that was laying on tiles where we were working. This building is only 38 years old. John

This is a picture of one of many rooms that need help. This has a lot of network/voice stuff but only a few pieces of telco equipment. Other rooms have lots more telco pieces and less newtorking/voice stuff.



At some point in time, all this will be demolished. As far as the telco is concerned, I just need to know what to do with the equipment in the upper right hand corner or just not ask any questions after the demo people do what they do.

The rooms like this were once occupied by call centers.

I appreciate all the reponses that have to do with abandoned cable and equipment, but is there anything written in black and white?

What is the rule that determines the best location for a the demarc? As mentioned ealier sometimes its in the MPOE, sometimes the riser closet and sometimes in the tenants office.

5Etek-mike:
Thanks, I am in the process of trying to get an onsite visit/survey. Lets see if I can get them to actually show up, or if they will expect me to pay for the survey.

Lightninghorse:
I've so far contacted three people from the telco. The reponse I received from the Network Engineer is "I'm only responsible for service being available at the building; talk to Installation about what is there."

Now there are two supervisors responsible for installation, one for special ciruits and one for POTS. I do not have an issue with POTS. I'm trying to get the special circuits guy in.

I think you are right about needing a lawyer/engineer team. I just need to see if the client is willing to pay for a lawyer. If all this turns out favorably and I do not need a lawyer, I'll buy everyone a beer!

CnGRacin:
I'm working with a non telco tech that has 20+ years experience. I would not do this work myself.

While cleaning the riser, a cable fell from an upper floor. This cable terminates in one of the blue cabinets. I'll tell you how the telco tech reponds when they see 200 feet of cable piled on top of the cabinet. When they ask how it got there, I'll have to say "I don't know." Really, I wasn't messing with it, it fell to the floor I was on. It would suck if it fell on someone in the basement.

Jacktel:
I'm at over 500 pounds of abandoned cable in the lower third of the building. Most has been a voice cable and ethernet and a little coax. I suspect there will be much less abandoned cable in the upper floors.

Thanks again,

John

From the picture, it would appear that somebody cared about their work. Of course I'll bet you've other examples that appear to be multiple spider webs trying to occupy the same space. John C.

At some point in time, all this will be demolished.

I don't think you mentioned that before. Tell the telco that you will be renovating the space and you need them to remove/relocate anything that belongs to them in the space. Give them a reasonable deadline before demo starts.

Expect to be charged for this.

-Hal

Before researching various regulations, one important word of advice: Proceed with caution (leave the legal stuff to the attorneys and clients). If you're researching the various regulations for your own familiarization, it's best to start with your local and state regulations for utility services, etc.

Regarding the federal regulations for ILEC owned equipment/property, research FCC Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 47 (Telecommunications), Part 51 (Interconnection). Scroll down and click on section 51.323, and see if what you're looking for is somewhere between pages 40 thru 44.

Do what Hal recommended.

Mike,

Thanks for the direction. It seems as if the FCC rules govern ILEC and CLECs, and the rules of sharing space/equipment between the two. I've not found the specific part that has to do with a building owner/tenant and the ILEC, but I'll continue to search the FCC info.

I did, however; find the rules that govern the service provider, building and tenant relationship for Texas:

Below is a link (for Texas):
https://www.puc.state.tx.us/telecomm/index.cfm

I saw something for California, while searching for PUC. Basically I think someone can just search for the Public Utility Commission for thier state to find pertinent rules.

The part that has to do with the telco, building and tenant can be found in:
CHAPTER 26. SUBSTANTIVE RULES APPLICABLE TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS
SERVICE PROVIDERS
Subchapter F. REGULATION OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICE
§26.129. Standards for Access to Provide Telecommunications Services at Tenant Request.

I thought this part was interesting:

I bet telco techs are totally unaware of this. Enforcing it will only slow down an install and make a tenant unhappy. But there is much more in there that is relevant to my situation.

It is understood that someone has to pay to have thier service setup, but many dont think about what should happen when service is no longer required. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is reponsible for the National Electical Code which also governs the responsibility of buildings which has a clause that states the building MUST remove abandoned cable.

It is up to the building to have an agreement with the tenant to pay for the removal of the wiring and equipment when the tenant leaves.

The building has to have an agreement with the telco to pay for space if substantial equipment is necessary to provide service to the tenant.

Now untangling the existing mess is going to take some work. (I'm looking for those hen's teeth I need to pull).

Thanks everyone for all your feedback.