Phone Systems

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
584c Wiring Shenanigans
#633373 10/20/19 04:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Hello,

Its good to be back -- back like 10 years ago I had an account on here as a kid.

Nice to revisit after a while.

I'm currently in the process of building out a 1A2 system for my home and ran into some challenges.
The system components I have (and are assembled & wired) include:
- 2x 584c panels (only 1 in use at a time)
- 1x KS-15900 Interrupter (10v 60hz, plugs into the 584c panel)
- 1x 20a2 Power Unit (with ring generator)
- 3x 66 blocks, with 25pair amphenol plugs that mate with the 584c

On each of the blocks (I only have 2 of the 3 connected for now) I have the 25 pair cables going to the KSU
punched down via the standard WRBYV grouping/color code. There are 2x 26 pair cables punched down on the KSU blocks, one is punched down to accomodate
a 10-button phone, and the other is punched down to accommodate a 6-button phone; this is done so the whole KSU board can be quickly disconnected from house wiring in case it needs to be moved, worked on etc.

Pics of all the components described here: https://imgur.com/a/0Ls1qJa

NOTE: There are bridge clips on the KSU blocks added AFTER the pics taken (in short, yes I know the pairs from the KSU and phones are not yet connected in the pic, they are meant as a reference of the color codes etc).

Power wise, I have the standard stapping on the panel, and have the 12 leads as documented in multiple BSPs connected to the respective terminals. My understanding is that the Interrupter can share the same power supply as the lamp supply (both appear 10v 60hz).
CO trunks to the KTUs enter from a Cisco gateway with FXS ports configured for Ground Start.

Phone wiring as such: (see images, I have added teal/green annotations showing how the phone leads are punched)

The problem is, when I power the system up nothing happens (no lights upon line selection, no dialtone, no ringing on inbound call).... -- the PSU definitely works, checked outputs with a voltmeter and all is fine. All the fuses on the PSU and Panel have been replaced with good known spares.

I have a feeling there's something basic in my wiring screwed up but would love input from the team here. All systems are grounded to the same cold water ground btw....

I'm debating testing my second panel to see if there's an issue with the first one I tried. I've tested 5 different KTUs with the same result...

Any help/guidance would be much appreciated.

EMP & Lightning Home Surge Protection
EMP - Click Here!
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633374 10/20/19 10:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,535
Likes: 1
Admin
*****
Online Thinking
Admin
*****
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,535
Likes: 1
Welcome back!

Be sure to check out Sites for Bell System Practices and More in this forum.

Is your interrupter a
KS-15900 list 1 (10 volt AC)
KS-19384 list 1 (20 volt DC polarized)
KS-19384 list 2 (20 volt DC non-polarized)

or are you using a solid state interrupter as in the ol' SAN/BAR... 10 volts from the lamp supply?


Dean
Photographs:
https://www.instagram.com/deanwilsoncanby/
https://fstoppers.com/profile/deanwilsoncanby

Please don't confuse your "Internet Search" with my licenses, certifications and over 30 years experience.

"Thank you for calling Technical Support. If you feel you have reached this number in error, please hang up and press redial."
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633377 10/20/19 11:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,680
Spam Hunter
*****
Online Content
Spam Hunter
*****
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,680
Hi buttercool. What was your original screen name? I would like to check to see what the status of it is. ponder If any original posts are available, we might be able to merge them into this current account.


I Love FEATURE 00

www.dexman.webs.com
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633379 10/21/19 12:37 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Online Content
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
Without seeing pictures of the back of the panel, I'm going to have to assume your wiring is correct.

When you short out the A/A1 leads on the side of the block with the system cables without any bridging clips, the relay in the 400 card should pull in - audibly. If it does, then with a short on A/A1 you should have 10VAC on LG/L. If the A/A1 short doesn't pull in the relay (and light the lamp), then either:
1) The power wiring to the panel is not properly done (check with a meter on the back of the panel). Or
2) You have a defective 400 card. Or
3) The cables from the 584 to the block are not good. (Check the amphenols to make sure they're wired properly). Or
4) You could possibly have a defective panel, but I've never seen one.

Do you have an option card plugged into the slot at the top of the back of the panel. It should have Option A facing up. I don't remember what happens without an option card installed, but it might really hose things up.

Let us know if you're getting anything related on these points and we'll continue to trouble shoot.

Sam


"Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?"
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633382 10/21/19 01:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Hey everyone thank you for the responses and it’s great to be back!

@Professor Shadow - my interrupter is the KS-15900. The 10v reference I made was probably due to my lack of knowledge about these systems smile part of my confusion is where to hook up the interrupter on the 20a2 power unit. All the BSPs I read just reference the connection as motor ground and motor battery but no much more detail than that. Given that it looks like the KS-15900 is 10v / 60hz rated I figured I could hook it up to one of the 10v outputs on the power unit (so it shares the + / G posts with one of the lamp connections).

@Dexman - I’ll do some digging to pull up the original account.

@Silversam - I’ll have to do some testing, these are def good data points. My suspicion is that I had hooked something up wrong but we’ll see what more testing reveals. I do have the option card/PCB and I do have the A side facing up. I believe the C side was used of sharing the interrupter across two panels.

The 584c Panel I’m currently using is a bit suspect (in my opinion) — Looks like somebody had glued one of the slot connectors back into place so perhaps there was some wiring screwed up in the process. Also 3 of the connectors closest to the interrupter are more inset than the others. In short I think somebody heavily modified/“fixed” this panel.

Either way, thank you all. This is a great community that cultivated my interests from an early childhood.

More to come as I do some testing.

Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633383 10/21/19 04:02 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Online Content
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
Buttercool -

Yup, the C side was used for two panels on one interruptor. If the panel looks messed with, it very likely is. Otherwise, why?

Anyway, let us know.

Sam


"Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?"
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
Silversam #633414 10/22/19 07:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
I tested with the old panel and the A/A1 short did nothing, I also tested with the other panel I have (lets call it the 584c, and the original panel I posted about is the K584c) and there is progress in that with only 1 of my 6 400D KTUs, this one being Issue 15, works partially -- I believe Issue 15 of the 400D is the first to support bridged ringing.

The first 2 slots I have fully wired end-to-end (meaning Cisco FXS port to CO pins on Lines 1 and 2 on Block A of the Amphenol going to the Panels 1 connector) seem to work like this:

- With the FXS port providing dialtone configured as GroundStart (with/without battery reversal enabled) and T/R from the Cisco FXS connected directly to the CO T/R pins on the KSU block (straight through T-to-T R-to-R) the key will light on inbound but picking up a ringing line does not work. Pressing a key and initiating a call call does not yield dialtone.
- With the FXS port providing dialtone configured as LoopStart (with/without battery reversal enabled) and T/R connected straight through to the CO T/R pair on the KSU an incoming call lights the key, and I am able to pick up the call on either key (when using my sad only working 400D KTU moved around across the slots). In this config I'm also able to initiate a call, break dialtone, connect with Cisco Unity and navigate with DMTF, 2way audio. Putting a call on hold fails and drops the call.
- In either configuration I do not see the Interrupter doing anything.
- Fairly certain the power wiring is correct and default strapping is as well, but happy to upload a pic, also the Imgur link in my inital post has pics of the wiring on the initial K584c panel.

It's worth noting this second/other 584c panel is oddly different, although its marked as 584c it has cutouts between pairs of the card-edge connectors so you can see the wiring and pins. The first panel I posted about was labeled K584c (ITT maybe?) and was solid with small cutouts for only the connectors themselves much like many of the pictures I have seen. Whats sketchy about this panel is that there are a few wires that bridge pins and are not within the metal 'legs' that hold the terminal board away from the metal frame that holds the KTUs.

This I'm still looking at:
- re-punching the first two lines/swapping blocks/amp leads
- ground connection resistance measurement (something 0.x ohm?) -- I need to take another look at where exactly the ground goes in this house.
- keeping an eye out for another 584c panel...
- picking up an ITT K400 card or a San/Bar 4000

As always, any input would be greatly appreciated smile

Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633430 10/23/19 03:41 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Online Content
Moderator-1A2, Cabling
*****
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,979
You could try connecting the electrical ground (first make sure you have one - test with a meter from the hotel on an outlet to screw on an electrical box) to the power supply ground screw.

When a call comes in from the channel bank, does the light flash at 60 ipm? With dial tone on the line and the phone off hook, short the A/A1 leads. Does the lamp light? If it does, try removing the short; the lamp should go on hold.

It does sound like your interruptor is not working. You'll have to check the prints. Bridge 10VAC to the interruptor motor and see if it starts.

That's all I got now...

Sam


"Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?"
Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633460 10/24/19 02:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Hi Silversam, these are great suggestions -- I too am under the suspicion the Interrupter is not working. Will post back with results. Thanks again.

Re: 584c Wiring Shenanigans
buttercool #633486 10/26/19 02:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,250
Likes: 1
Moderator-Vertical, Vodavi, 1A2, Outside Wire
*****
Online Content
Moderator-Vertical, Vodavi, 1A2, Outside Wire
*****
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,250
Likes: 1
Here are just a few quick observations. I didn't read every item to the letter, but just to clarify:

1. Anything but a real copper CO line will give you headaches with any type of line card below E. Even 400D, Issue 15 isn't perfect. Keep in mind, trying to make this hardware work with fake dial tone will yield marginal results.

2. Forget about ground start and polarity/line reversal settings. Those are PBX parameters for trunks and have no bearing on 1A2. All you need for 1A2 is a good loop start line with proper voltage (44-52 volts) and loop current in the 27-30 mA range. Loop supervision for disconnect is also required for it to properly release abandoned calls.

3. Yes, a part number prefaced with K most definitely indicates an ITT product. This dates back to their Kellogg days. The newer ITT ones were made of white plastic, while WE and S/C ones were always made of cast aluminum.

4. Interrupters were built to last an eternity. If you place a ground on the ST pin of any line card slot (pin 5), the interruper should start and run for the duration of one cycle upon removal of this ground from the ST pin. Yes, it could be bad, but I seriously doubt it. I'd be looking at my LB/LG connections throughout your power supply connections to the panel.

5. Keep in mind that your system must be grounded to a point that references the Tip side of your line(s). Basically, the tip side of your lines should measure around 0 volts to your ground. You should also be able to pull dial tone from your ground and the ring side of your lines. You can ground the system to a dozen cold water pipes and ground rods, but that won't mean a hill of beans if those grounds don't have some reference to the source's tip side of the line. Does that make any sense?


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  ChrisRR, EV607797, Silversam 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Most Recent 5 Post
Colour Choice for X-16 gone...
by MooreTel - 10/24/20 01:49 AM
Are you an Asterisk Ace?
by Toner - 10/22/20 03:39 PM
SVMI Card settings backup & restore
by Hofman telekom - 10/21/20 01:46 PM
IPOffice remote voice mail access
by Brian A - 10/21/20 11:41 AM
Who's Online Now
40 members (Curlycord, jsb15, EV607797, Yoda, justbill, brokeda, nortelvoip, Coral Tech, barnito, hbiss, Silversam, newtecky, Touch Tone Tommy, MooreTel, hitechcomm, buttercool, jeffmoss26, Mercenary Roadie, dude, dexman, Professor Shadow, JBean3329, dans, Meyery2k, Bob3470, Ruben, nfcphoneman, jab1780, RATHER BE FISHING, jknichols, KRRath, Daniel, Toner, BTS01, Carl Navarro, msnell, chelsea419, jsaad, Brian A, DD782), 465 guests, and 62 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Popular Topics (Views)
Forum Statistics
Forums94
Topics94,024
Posts637,629
Members49,367
Most Online5,661
May 23rd, 2018
Today's Birthdays
bcousins, jeremylh, Peterbu, zlittell, z_cm
Newest Members
jsb15, C.t.c.73, Farquie, 4teltech, TRIM IT
49366 Registered Users
Get Tech Support Now! Click the banner below
Get Tech Support Now!
Top Posters (30 Days)
dexman 20
Ruben 15
hbiss 12
Daniel 9
Bluewater Sailing
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=5256033
EMP Shield for Commercial - Home & Vehicle
Use Coupon code SAVE - Click Here!
Sold AD
Servpro Ventura 24-Hour Emergency Service
Free Estimates call us now 24Hours
Contact Us | Telephone System Tech Support | Terms of Service

Sundance Communications is not affiliated with any of the above manufacturers.
©Copyright Sundance Communications 1998-2020
Trusted Partners