sundance-communications.com
I believe they have a decent handle on it except for the junction boxes to accommodate that long of a pull. Does someone have a link to either some sort of an in/out feed box that sits flush to the ground or that will be freestanding? On a 1200' run I'd say we need at least three junctions not including the building entrances.

They will bury the conduit a minimum of 24" to the top of the conduit, or approx 28" deep total. Also will pour concrete in where the conduit may be driven over.

We'll put in interduct for the fiber and some copper. The missing piece is how to "split up the run."

Also I guess we should vacuum through a pull line vs having them try to install it when putting in the conduit?

Obviously we are not outside plant cable contractors. We are interested in helping the customer do it right the first time as cost effectively as possible. Thanks for any ideas.
How about something like this so nothings above ground?
What Bill suggests is what you want to use but it probably isn't something that you will get in a hurry or cheaply. What I would do is check your local irrigation supply house. They use something similar for their valves. They don't have a bottom which is good because you don't want them filling with water. Set them on a couple of inches of gravel. If you can't get the depth, build up some courses of concrete brick and mortar on the bottom of the hole then set your box on top so the top is flush with the ground.

Arrange you conduit so you pull straight through. No splices.

-Hal
Thanks guys. I am surprised this type of junction box isn't extremely common. Hard to find anything even with a google search. Maybe I'll go by a couple of sites I know that have pedestal-type enclosures and take pics first. I would think that installing a fiber interduct and say a 12-pair voice cable that I wouldn't want to pull more than 400' without breaking it up with junctions.

Bill - that source looks like it is across the pond.
Check Graybar, this is an OSP question, and ask for quazite boxes....or do as Hal suggested. Hal's will be cheaper. You want a "sidewalk box" or a "hand hole" as they would be known to an electrician....I get them at a local "sparkie" store...in stock.

:thumb:
Quote
Originally posted by Noisycow:

Bill - that source looks like it is across the pond.
I knew what I wanted to show you, but didn't care where it came from. Hal's solution would be a cheaper way to go. Some of the comercial sprinkler valve boxes are fairly large. The buried access points used mostly by cable company's would be larger, depends on your needs.
You guys are great, thanks a lot.

It looks like the Quasite box is the ticket. Not sure yet if the open/ventilated bottom (on top of 2" or so of gravel) or sealed is the way to go. The assumption is that water will get in from the 'pull' holes at the top.

Then you just drill/cut the 4" holes where you want the PVC to penetrate the box? I like the idea of something flush to the ground even if it gets covered up with grass/gravel - as long as it documented where it is.

The little kid in me really wants to drive one of those trenchers, but I better do the account a favor and leave that to someone who knows what they are doing.

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$3.00? I filled up at $1.55 yesterday....Quazite is basically "soft", a hole saw cuts it easily. Just open them up and go. The top should be level with the surface. These are not traffic level units (in other words, you can't drive a vehicle on them).
Oh, that was just something I found, a couple months old.

Since I might want to run digital phones that far and the loop limit is about 1200-1300ft (Samsung 7200) what is the best way to get the longest possible length?

Instead of CAT3 25-pair, maybe Cat6 multi-runs or ? - wait- more twists mean more distance?

If you were trying to get the longest possible distance out of a voice cable feed for digital phones, what would you use?

Paging audio definitely won't make it that far so we can tap into a phone speaker.
I would use the largest gauged cable I could get in there. A 22 or 19 gauge cable would make that distance a mute point. Those footages are based on 24 gauge cable.
OSP cable is effectively "CAT Zero". True, there are some manufacturers that make a CAT3 and CAT5 rated OSP cable, by adding the increased twist tightness, you are actually lengthening the copper pair.

People seem to be under the misconception that CAT5 or above is better. Perhaps in some cases, like typical indoor LAN wiring for data speed, but not in voice applications. I'm shooting from the hip here, but a thousand feet of standard OSP cable nets about 1,100 feet of copper conductor length. A thousand feet of CAT5 nets something closer to 1,500 feet of copper. So, you see by using a higher category rating, you are actually hindering the problem with distance, not helping it.

If you want to address this distance limitation professionally, you should consider sticking with standard OSP cable (PE39 or PE89 for example) and just use 22 gauge instead of 24 gauge.
maybe Cat6 multi-runs

You can't be serious.

-Hal
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
maybe Cat6 multi-runs

You can't be serious.

-Hal
I was waiting for that...
:rofl: aok
Now that you are aware of the effect of cable gauge....what makes you think paging audio won't carry? What gauge speaker cable? What voltage paging are you using? Or do you need a secondary distribution amp?

Well, :shrug: ????
Paging audio definitely won't make it that far so we can tap into a phone speaker.

You lost me there. Are you saying you want paging from overhead or external speakers but you don't think that will work at that distance so you want to hack a phone apart and tap into the speaker??

-Hal
I believe he was thinking about using the amp in the building that is 1200' away for far end speakers.
I would use KLD's suggestion and use a secondary distribution amp in the second building. Just feed the secondary amp with audio/page output.
I would use a Cat 3 cable for the phones because a digital phone may not like untwisted pairs but higher cat rating will increase the distance. For the paging a 70 v speaker line will easily go over 1200' but could cause crosstalk or interference on other lines to close.
You don't want to run 70volts paging through the same cable as the phone (it will bleed through).

Either put another amp in the other building and feed it with a 600 ohm source (off of your PBX or key system) or if you've just got one or two speakers there run an output off the amp through the telephone cable. Use 8 ohm/70volt transformers at each end. Step it down to 8 ohms going in to the pipe and step it to back up to 70 volts when it come out.

Sam
Quote
I would use a Cat 3 cable for the phones because a digital phone may not like untwisted pairs
Actually, you can't even buy OSP cable that's not twisted pair. It's just not as tightly-twisted.
Great tips, thanks.

As for the paging, Bldg #1 has a Bogen (old) 70v setup and the other extended Bldg #2 has the same.

I guess I was saying that the 600ohm source (off the Samsung 7200) wouldn't reach, but apparently I am wrong? Can a Cat3 4-pair voice cable carry 600ohm audio 1000-1100ft? I have never gone that far. I am aware Valcom has paging expanders to boost the signal (as well as noise I suppose).

Should I use a heavier guage cable for the 600ohm page audio feed - maybe shielded? 99.9% of the paging I've done is Valcom, with short <200ft runs at most. If someone has a specific part number for a good paging feed cable that would be fantastic.

We did an official measurement and it is closer to 1000' - bldg A to B, so I think we are good for the digital phones over say a Cat3 50-pair feed. The Samsung manual says the digital phones are good to 1310'.
I always use a shielded twisted pair cable for any audio feeds. Depending on the distance, 22 to 16 gauge...never had to use anything larger.
You want to use a balanced line with a line level signal. You should be OK with using a pair on your 25 pair but if it were me and since this is a new pull I would use a separate shielded twisted pair as Jeff suggests. Keep in mind that this is an UG run and anything you pull has to be suitable for direct burial. They do make flooded audio cable, I believe West Penn is one manufacturer.

-Hal
Hal is right...take a look at their Aquaseal series of cables.
Back in the '60s I worked for a Paging and Intercom company. They had their own "Muzak" - banks of tape decks that sent out signal over telephone company leased lines. These worked fine all over the city.

We would routinely do jobs for Garment Center companies - A showroom on 7th Avenue or Broadway and a factory on the far West side or across the river in NJ. Each side would have it's own amplifier, speakers and Intercom system (this predated Interconnect).

We would connect the two sites with leased lines and they could page the other side and then talk to each other. We routinely did this over many miles of Telco copper wire.

One morning we came in to dozens of trouble tickets. None of our remote paging to/from NJ was working! Over the weekend, NY Tel had converted all the cross-Hudson circuits from copper to Carrier. Woops!

But everything worked fine over long distances of copper OSP.


Sam
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
Keep in mind that this is an UG run and anything you pull has to be suitable for direct burial. They do make flooded audio cable, I believe West Penn is one manufacturer.-Hal
The plan was to have them install a 4' PVC pipe from building to building with 3-4 Quasite boxes along the way.

Pull a fiber interduct, a 50-pair PVC Cat3 (never passes through plenums, even inside the building), a shielded audio cable now, and a heavy pull tape for future.

Then have FIS make me up a custom MM distribution 6-cond 62.5 fiber with a pull eye, all pre-terminated, to pull through the interduct.

Never even considered direct burial cable to be honest. It would be a 'one time' deal. Maybe a 50pair and the fiber as direct burial would be worth looking at as an option. Then there would be no Quasite boxes, not as much worry about avoiding running the cable only where large trucks would drive over it etc.

Since their security cameras run over IP, the fiber takes care of that - will consider a one time direct burial. :bow:
Maybe 15 years ago I had a customer that owned a restaurant that got it's music from an "audio pair". It was in the NI on the outside of the building along with his regular POTS and payphone lines and was wired with old quad just like all the rest. When I first clipped my buttset onto it I thought it was a non-working pair that was picking up a radio station. I figured it out when it dawned on me that the music inside sounded like what I had heard. Of course nobody told me, the old Greek who owned the place probably had no idea.

-Hal
Never even considered direct burial cable to be honest.

I'm saying that what you put in the conduit must be direct burial cable.

Everything installed below grade, even in conduit and innerduct HAS to be suitable for direct burial. That conduit and innerduct will fill with water no matter how you think it won't. It's a common misconception by greenhorns to think they can install UG conduit and just pull "indoor" cable and it will last. Ain't gonna happen.

-Hal
Hal, let me ask you this...At my house in Toledo, we just had an electrician trench our backyard and run conduit to our garage and put in a 60 amp subpanel. He just ran normal #10 THHN stranded wire through the conduit. Is this going to cause a problem with the weather here?
Oh damn you know how to ruin a party! Isn't direct burial cable stiff as a board? Pulling through a conduit - no fun. Some of those direct burial cables look like they could survive a nuclear holocaust - rat repellent, armor, ant destroying nanoprobes smile . If I could skip the conduit it would make the job a lot easier.

I completely agree with the no 'inside-grade' cable through the conduit - that is a done deal. However, it there is a brutally tough (price is no object) 6-cond fiber and 50-pair that we could feel comfortable about laying in the dirt 24" down, that would really make our day.

BTW, if any of you travel through PDX, beers on me.
Jeff, the wire is dual rated (TNNH/THWN) which is fully-suited for wet locations. They really don't make THHN and THWN as separate wire types anymore.
Ed, I wasn't sure if you have to run UF cable through conduit...never worked with the stuff. I'm told it's not fun.
You would have liked the job they did...dual 30 amp breaker in the house running out to a sub panel with 4 20 amp breakers, so we can put lights and garage door openers in.
Thanks Hal - The people at West Penn were great. Very helpful. I will order their shielded waterproof audio cable for the run.

The contractor that is doing the trenching will install three 1.25" innerducts through the 4" PVC. We will then be the people pulling the fiber, 50-pair, and audio through two of them leaving one for the future. Will use OSP cable; knowing that water/elements will work their way into the pathway.

It works out to 1130' feet, with about 650' of that underground. The rest in running through their giant building to get to the data room. They are debating having the innerducts exposed in the inside runs vs running the 4" PVC all the way.
Quote
Originally posted by Noisycow:
It works out to 1130' feet, with about 650' of that underground. The rest in running through their giant building to get to the data room. They are debating having the innerducts exposed in the inside runs vs running the 4" PVC all the way.
You are aware that the OSP cable must be terminated/transitioned within 50' of entering the building, correct?
Conduit all the way!! And the 50' rule doesn't apply if it is in conduit.

Jeff-what Ed said.

-Hal
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
Conduit all the way!! And the 50' rule doesn't apply if it is in conduit.
The reason I mentioned the 50' rule is because Noisycow stated, "They are debating having the innerducts exposed in the inside runs vs running the 4" PVC all the way."

He is still suppose to abide by the 50' rule if he is using PVC or innderduct.

It probably is a moot point. I doubt any inspector is going to notice how the communiations cable is installed. :rolleyes:
He is still suppose to abide by the 50' rule if he is using PVC or innderduct.

Innerduct, yes because it is not a listed conduit or raceway. But I don't remember the NEC making any stipulation as to what conduit could or couldn't be used. It just says "conduit or raceway". I'll look but I don't think I'm wrong.

But keep in mind that there may be local ammendments that prohibit PVC or limit its use within a structure.

-Hal
NEC 2005 800.113

Exception No. 2: Listing and marking shall not be required where the length of the cable within the building, measured from its point of entrance, does not exceed 15m (50ft) and the cable enters the building from the outside and is terminated in an enclosure or on a listed primary protector.

800.2 Definitions

Point of Entrance. Within a building, the point at which the wire or cable emerges from an external wall, from a concrete floor slab, or from a rigid metal conduit or an intermediate metal conduit grounded to an electrode in accordance with 800.100(B).
I stand corrected!

-Hal
I know FIS has fiber that is rated to go from outdoor to indoor without the transition and I'd rather not have to splice.

The cables could probably come into a box with backboard to transition the 50-pair to inside wire; and lightning protection terminals.
All major fiber cable manufacturers make indoor/outdoor-rated cable, so you will be fine there by using it. It is not much more expensive than standard outdoor fiber cable and much easier to work with.

With regard to the copper cable: Yes, it will need to be contained within listed conduit for the application since OSP cable is not fire retardant. In fact, it is quite flammable since it is not designed for indoor use whatsoever. The allowance of 50 feet is actually pretty generous in my book.
Thanks Ed-

I guess I have been a mother hen over this - we are not installing the conduit/innerduct itself - but the customer is a friend and I'd like to see them do it right the first time.

They have a favorite all-purpose contractor doing the work and my guess is it could turn into a disaster unless I 'hen' it.

-Vance
I don't think you are being a mother hen at all. I think that you are doing the right thing by coming here and soliciting feedback. That's what this forum is all about.
So, unlike fiber, there is no 50-pair cable that is rated for indoor/outdoor so it can be pulled all the way (and at some points exposed indoors, or just in an innerduct)? If there is I can't find it. Guess I'm stuck with that nasty icky pick for 600' of the 1100'.

I found the Nemco(?)50-pair entrance boxes if the 50-pair has to meet the 50' rule regardless. OSP in, IW out.

Fiber <$$$$$!!!!> wow - need to budget about $4500 for the cabling/cable parts (everything but network gear); or so through Lanshack.com. If someone knows a good wholesale fiber shop in the PNW or West Coast please let me know. Prefer to install pre-terminated 12-strand MM 62.5 with pulling eyes on both ends for all the flexibility possibly in pulling the fiber.
NC....we have a guy on here that does custom fiber cables...in NJ. Post in WTB.

If you don't want to deal with icky pic but once on each end, run it in metalic conduit from the entry to the terminal...then terminate. Make sure the tail splice from the terminal and the icky pic is enclosed properly.
I'll probably terminate the OSP at the building entrance on something like this https://www.circatel.com/pdf/100-66.pdf and then continue on from there. I know it isn't the best solution (read Ed's posts on another thread), but here in PDX lighting strikes are rare ... smile .
.......but how are you going to keep the icky pic from bleeding icky all over? IDC is okay for the output but what about the input?

You have never seen a mess until you see icky terminated on IDC.
CSC in Buena Park, CA will provide any configuration of pre-terminated fiber with pulling eye(s). You should confirm with your customer whether or not they want Laser-optimized multimode fiber (50/125) for faster future apps or plain old 62.5/125 multimode. CSC (714)670-7711 https://www.gocsc.com
Thanks BF.

I always want to inform the customer of their options. If we install the 10-gig MM fiber, will it add to my pain? I mean will current fiber modules, media converters (gig), connectors, 'my Amp Lightcrimp tester'/tools work with it?

I am surprised that the 10-gig 50 fiber isn't really that much more money, but if it opens a big can of worms in terms of compatibility ... probably a no.

The distance at this job is about 1150 feet. I can't get a clear answer on the max distance on the 10-gig fiber. Some say 500 meters, some say 300m or 984 ft. If it is 300 meters then it isn't going to work as a possible option.
Yes and Yes and Yes....and depending on the speed of the media converters ... fiber is at the speed of light ... how fast do you want to go?

1 gig or 10 gig or 100 gig....the fiber is just a media...yes, the faster, the cleaner the fiber has to be...but it still goes back to the media converters.

The distances you are talking about are so short it shouldn't make a big difference on speed.
Apparently it does. One Corning 50/125 fiber goes at maximum of 300 meters for 10-gig, and another goes to a maximum of 550 meter for 10-gig. So distance is a factor when you are trying to use MM fiber for 10-gig speeds.
Interesting....the distance is due to the purity of the glass and the connections. If that is all you can get at that nano rate, it can't be all that good. Probably due to the dual usage of indoor/outdoor.

If you truly want those speeds, go with a hybrid cable with both MM and SM fiber with laser media converters to guarantee that speed.
The recommended maxiumum length for OM3 laser optimized 50/125um backbone is 300m (984ft) at 10Gb/s. (BICSI TDMM, 11th Edition)

If you want to be in spec to 10G+, then you'll need to go with single-mode fiber. If they need MM and SM, go with the hybrid that Ken recommended. If they only need MM for now, you may still want to recommend the hybrid so they have the SM for future use.

Your Amp LightCrimp kit will certainly work for terminating 62.5 or 50um MM or the single-mode. Just make sure you order the right connectors. The cladding on all three fibers is 125um, so the terminations are exactly the same, you just use different connectors.

If you choose to go with single-mode, you'll need to make sure you have the proper testing equipment. You cannot test SM with a MM light-source.

-Larry
Quote
Originally posted by nfcphoneman:

If you choose to go with single-mode, you'll need to make sure you have the proper testing equipment. You cannot test SM with a MM light-source.

-Larry
To expand on what Larry said, your same light source that you use for 62.5 can be used for 50 micron fiber. You just need to match the correct patch to the corresponding fiber; 62.5 cord to 62.5 fiber...
The feedback I got from 3-4 sources for this app was to go with the 62.5/125 gig fiber MM. It is a satellite building, not hugely bandwidth intensive, and the distance is just a little too far for 10gig. There will be at least one empty innerduct the whole route, which is nice.

Fiber is fun. Nice break from all the copper pulling. It just is not possible to be a hands-on 'expert' on it when it is only 3-5% of what we do. That AMP Lightcrimp tool kit has sure been a lifesaver though. We can always terminate as ST and then let the patchcord interface with whatever the customer comes up with - LC, etc.

This forum is sure great - has been a big help - appreciate it 100%. I should spend more time here going through all the old threads vs my obsession with cars and trucks!!!
Finally got the go-ahead on this project. Of course the PDX weather is about as hostile as it gets here right now. Record levels of snow and ice. Should be fun!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Customer installing their own underground 4" PVC 1200' - 12/26/08 12:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by justbill:
I would use the largest gauged cable I could get in there. A 22 or 19 gauge cable would make that distance a mute point. Those footages are based on 24 gauge cable.
Very interesting forum, have read all the way through and have gained some great insight.

From my old maintenance trouble shooting splicing days: 24 guage copper had approx. 45' per ohm, 22 guage has approx. 65' per ohm and 19 guage (pencil point that stuff is!) has 125' per ohm. So 1200 feet works out to 26.67 ohms of resistance for 24 AWG, 18.487 ohms of resistance for 22AWG and 9.6 ohs of resistance for 19 AWG. Temperature plays somewhat of a factor but not terribly much. We had a similar issue some years back in having some OPX's placed at an assembly hall and using the 22 AWG buried cable worked just fine to get them the farther distance needed.

There is a company that makes LAN extenders as well that will work over Copper if I am permitted to mention it: https://www.patton.com/. That might serve for a future reference point if someone can not place fiber, which is propably the metheod of choice in most cases.
Thanks for that link. I was just looking for ethernet over copper last week. I'll add that one to my list.

-Hal
You could go broke buying the tool pieces you need to do 'heavy duty' OSP cable pulling part time!

Swivels, innerduct pullers, pulling socks, rope, mule tape .. the list never ends.

Since a quality swivel alone is $350, its hello Ace Hardware for me! Make shift hooks and swivels. Misc stuff off Ebay.

Maybe I'll take pics - should be fun.
OSP is really a completely different industry. Different tools, different materials, different cable, different required skill sets. I had about 12 or 13 years in when I did my first OSP job. I was like a babe in the woods. Good thing my partner knew that end of the business.

The job was to run a 100 pr cable from one end of creation to the other - all on the grounds of the Bronx VA Hospital. The cable ran inside the building in conduit for a while, then out to a series of manholes, then out the last manhole and was piped up the side of a building. Then it ran aerial for a couple of thousand feet on poles, went down the side of the last pole, was trenched into a building, termed and then extended a few hundred feet to a cook box.

A little bit of everything. When I was finished with that one I had as good an education as you could get.

My partner made out a list of what we'd need: Everything from hooks and belts to three bolt clamps and strand grips. Icky Pic cleaner, thru bolts, a brace and bit. Kellums and splice cases and protectors and......

I thought the supply man was going to cry when he got the list.


Sam
Silversam - I completely agree. The OSP installation is a completely different animal. I have a whole new respect for the OSP pros (which I am not). The sparkies, being experts on everything, have decided to try and just 'jump in there' and do it.

We have been waiting on the fiber and had an agreement with the other contractor to hold off on installing the three innerducts in the 4" PVC 500' straight run.

Just happen to be by there today and what do I see?!! The contractor told his workers to 'shove it in there' without calling me. No voice cable, no rope, no Aquaseal cable for paging, etc.

I should have taken a picture. They could only get it to go in there about 75' because the innerduct was tangling up like crazy. When I asked what they thought they were doing they said they've never installed a mess like this before.

They were attempting to pull all that with a little nylon pull string and I have two 1800lb Nepco tapes + a 600' roll of 3/4" rope sitting just feet away. frown They 'greased up' the head of the innerduct - and, of course - I had an ample supply of Polywater right around the corner. Nice mess.

I have all the right goodies on standby for the innerduct pull - chains with innerduct pullers, swivels, etc. They just duct taped the three innerducts together and started yanking from the other end. It looked like DOC OCK from Spiderman.

Here I did all this research and spent about $750 on extra innerduct 'hardware' and had a plan, and get ignored.

Needless to say, they 'need me' now. Maybe not me, but anyone who has worked with or researched innerduct conduit and OSP pulls before; they haven't even seen the stuff before today.

The other mistakes -

They didn't provide me a pull box/point half way through the long 500' run. They don't want any kind of box in their parking lot frown . So, as a compromise, they are going to cut a top section out of the PVC pipe at the 250' point and when I am done, glue it back on - frown nice - it is a one-time deal.

They did pull three 4" PVC conduits on the 500' run and two 4" PVCs the rest of the way. Wrong. I requested METAL for the OSP to get to the phone room 175' run once it is into the building. Oh well. That is the way it is - I will live with it. As a fire carry hazard it really is not - the run goes down and around a giant mostly-open service shop. Of course, it wouldn't probably make an inspector jump for joy, but that isn't my problem. I said what I wanted to see. They ignored.

The fiber is coming soon so I told them to wait on the innerduct and we'll all 'work together' to get it done.

The good part is the guys who installed the PVC itself did clean work with large 48" radius sweeps and junction to pull from (except the center of the main 500' run). I will try to take pics. Getting out my camera when sparkie was trying to do the install today would have been a little obvious and maybe a little rude.
And rude would be bad because? Sometimes ya gotta make the troublecausers 'see the light'. I've met a few sparkies that were unwilling to do something they had no knowledge of, but darn few! John C.
I posted this over at Mike Holt's sparkie forum a day or so ago. I had to admonish one of them for taking peoples money to install networks that never worked and never learning how to do it right. Sounds to me like he wirenutted everything together instead of using a switch or router. eek

Electrical credentials don't automatically give you knowledge but there is apparently something about them that makes some people think they can do everything.

-Hal
Quick question: When grounding the Porta Systems building entrance 66 fused blocks, are both ends grounded? If only one side is grounded, does it matter if it is the near (central equipment) or phone extensions far end?
Both, due to the correct bonding requirement.

In other words, ground the cable sheath and the protector that should be at each end of the cable run.
Thanks!
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