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#477462 12/03/08 04:02 PM
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Hi guys,

This is such an informative board. It nice to be around so many smart people. I work primarily in IT, but recently I have a responsibility that has to do with telephone service.

The reason for my post is that I'm looking for information that has to do with the "rules" a multi-tenant building and telecom providers have to follow. For example, the building must provide access to telecom techs and space for wiring so that the tenant can get service from the telecom provider. The building has over 100 abandoned but tagged T1 circuits that the telecom provider has no interest in removing, unless the building pays the telco to do so. I think it is impossible for the telco to have a right to leave abandoned wiring and equipment indefinately. If I know the "law" I can talk intelligently with the telco representatives.

My location probably makes a difference, I'm located in San Antonio, TX.

If someone can shed some light on this matter or point me in the right direction, your effort would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

John

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#477463 12/03/08 08:31 PM
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From my 25 year experience the provider has no responsibilty to remove existing wiring. They are only responsible to the demarcation point and can just terminate service from there office and not be required to remove anything for free.

#477464 12/03/08 10:13 PM
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Let me ask you guys this...a customer of mine manages an office building. There is a phone room in the basement and then closets on each floor. Could they have me come in and remove all the abandoned wiring/lines even if technically there is no demarc present? The cable comes from the protectors, to house cable on 66 blocks throughout.


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#477465 12/04/08 03:39 AM
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Jeff,

Just be careful, going back to the thread on insurance, if you knock out any current tenant’s service you could be liable for damages and lost revenue.


JimmyV

"Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires. Even if it were, it would be of no practical value" Boston Post, 1865
#477466 12/04/08 04:57 AM
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As jimmyv says, Jeff, some circuits may appear to be "Dead" when if fact they are special circuits. Best leave this to someone with more experience.


Scientists say that the universe is made up of Protons, Neutron & Electrons. They forgot "Morons".
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#477467 12/04/08 05:41 AM
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Check me on this, but I thought that all cable installed in commercial buildings became part of the structure and therefore the building owner's cable. Which he can do with as he pleases, including but, not limited to, maintaining, or NOT maintaining. However, he can not remove, disable, damage, or otherwise mess with it as long as it is in use.
All of the above subject to any agreement made otherwise.
All that said, I have done as customers have requested during a move to new digs, and made the abandoned cable useless, AFTER telling the customer the rules as I understand them, and making him sign something saying he accepted responsibility for any costs involved with his request. John C.


When I was young, I was Liberal. As I aged and wised up, I became Conservative. Now that I'm old, I have settled on Curmudgeon.
#477468 12/04/08 06:03 AM
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FOR THE ORIGIONAL POSTER:

John is correct, here in SA any inside plant beyond the NID or DMARC is property of the building or user of the circuit. In other words if a feed goes from a first floor NID to a third floor NID it is still telco. After that it's all you.

You can not remove or disable any "live circuit" it belongs to telco.

FOR JEFF.
There is always a NID, DMARC, MPO or what ever. Leave it alone. Please ask your questions in your own thread. It distracts from the OP and their questions.

#477469 12/04/08 11:51 AM
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For a CIRCUIT the Telco’s responsibility ends with the NID or demarc. (aka smart-jack for specials.)

A multi tenant building like this, the Telco’s CABLE/WIRE ends at the MPOE and that can create a catch-22 so to speak when a demarc for a circuit is requested beyond the MPOE at time of installation.

Responsibility for wiring or existing infrastructure cable used to extend a CIRCUIT belongs to the Telco. Once a circuit has been disconnected the responsibility reverts back to the building owner and/or tenants as they have paid the installation charges to have it placed there.


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#477470 12/04/08 04:33 PM
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WWWaaayyy back when the 'unbundling' started, SWB would either sell in place cable, or pull it taut and cut off everything outside the conduit. That way the customer couldn't re-use the cable. We had a customer that 2 phones on a 1A2 system in a separate building about 50 feet from the main building. We sold them a 4-wire system and they didn't want to pay SWB's price for the cable in the conduit. SWB said all cable or no cable. So customer said "Get your cable out of my conduit." SWB balked, lawyers talked, agreement was reached that the cable to the remote building would be pulled out by SWB, and all other cable would be abandoned and short-cut. They had to use some kind of monster to get that 50pr out! I asked the SWB boss what he was going to do if he couldn't get it out. He said "No problem, we'll pull on it 'til the conduit comes out of the ground, if we have to. The cable will will take the strain." He was sucessful, AND thoughtful enough to suggest we tie a pull string to his cable! That cable had been in there at least 5 years and he said it was put in with lube that had a tendency to turn to glue, over time. I was impressed! John C.


When I was young, I was Liberal. As I aged and wised up, I became Conservative. Now that I'm old, I have settled on Curmudgeon.
#477471 12/04/08 05:07 PM
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Thanks for answering my question about abandoned cable/wiring.

I should have opened with the complete list of concerns. Here is a bit more background information and my other conerns.

Some additional background info:
This building is receiving service from the telco in a MDF room in the basement. This is where 6000 pairs come in from the outside and are terminated on the bottom part of wall. Above this, there are feeder cables/pairs that go up the riser to the riser closet on each floor. The MDF room is where cross connects are made between the pairs that come in from the outside to the feeder that travels up the riser. This was installed at the time the building was built. I assume this room is the MPOE. (I would NEVER remove the feeder cables from the MDF to each floor, just in case someone was wondering). Also in this room there are tall (4-7 feet) enclosed cabinets that have racks of T1 cards, DS3 cards and other equipment that were added in the past few years.

When the telco provides service to a tenant, I expect the telco to do their magic which comes from the outside, then cross connect in the MDF which runs up the riser, then run wiring from the feeder to a 66block or T1 equipment or phone jack which ends up being the demarc. Then run wiring from the demarc into the tenants space. The reality is sometime the demarc is in the MDF, sometime its in the riser closet, sometimes its in the tenant space.

So, as long as a telco customer is receiving service there is a demarc, but when service has been discontinued the demarc ceases to be a demark and the cabling can be removed up to the MPOE. I understand this to mean I could remove the wiring from the tenant space to the riser closet, remove the equipment/demarc from the riser closet, remove the wire from the equipment to the feeder and remove the cross connect from the MDF, leaving the feeder cable in place.

Concern regarding abandoned equipment:
In addition to the cable/wiring, there are many abandoned T1 cards in enclosures mounted on backboards in riser closets. I would guess about at least 25 enclosures with at least 50 T1 cards. Almost all of this is powered on and I estimate at least 50% is not in use. Would these become property of the building? No one really wants the equipment, I'll probably pile it up and give it to the next telco tech that comes.

Concern regarding AC/electricity/excessive space:
Lastly, the telco has more than a few cabintes in the building. It seems as if these cabinets have enough equipment to service other buildings. Combined, these consume a notable amount space, electricity and cooling that the building should get reimbursed for.
Should the telco pay rent for the amount of space and air conditioning the cabinets take?

I didnt mean to write a novel.

Thanks again,

John

[edited for typos and clarity]

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